Sticker Shock!

[Terry Cox]

Industrial Scientific Corporation list several...

toxic gases, with data sheets on each one, including carbon dioxide. Boaters with coolers often use dry ice during extended cruises (including me), which have resulted in deaths, perhaps not to the degree of carbon monoxide, but dead is still dead.Terry

 

[Ross]

terry, Specfically what does the data sheet

say about CO2? You will find CO2 in the bubbles in your beer, carbonated soft drinks, and it makes the bubbles in your bread. CO2 will take your life in the same manner that H2O will take your life. By cutting off your access to oxygen.

 

[abe]

New sticker......WARNING!!!!

...you could drown in water.abe

 

[coastal confessions]

way to politial

Man I'm new to sailing, but I'm not new to politics. Where does it all end? What would Cpt. Cook have said? We all know plastic is bad, we all know it sucks to wake up to a fire anywhere we sleep, and not breathing is never good,but, at what point do we say, go live,go sail,and your life is in your hands not mine. I want people to study things and conditions that may harm me and my family, let me know what they find, then shut up. Salvation through regulation will never work. Just my o.

 

[Ross]

Jack, I can see where that might be needed

Yeah right.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Mr Connor

While the physical cause of death was certainly CO poisoning and tragic the way they received CO poisoning was just dumb (and tragic).When you go down to the sea in ships it is the Captain's responsibility to know this stuff. I would feel differently if some "evil" corporation had emitted a colorless, odorless cloud of gas and they sailed through it and died but the captain did not avail himself of common knowledge. He was stupid or negligent not ignorant. I would find it hard to believe that anyone would think breathing exhaust gas was good for you.As the stickers are intended to remove ignorance they are targeting the wrong audience. A responsible captain is always learning and using his head, thinking and asking him/herself what the consequences of this decision will be. A sticker is over kill to deliver this message and it does nothing to inform the stupid (as if such a thing was possible)I thought the comedian who gave us "here's your sign" had it right. Had he been wearing his sign I could have stopped him. So lets sticker (the preferred legal and politically correct way I guess) the stupid so we can at least help them out.

 

[Ross]

Bill, I believe that all portable generators

carry a permanent CO warning tag. But "there ain't no cure for stupid"! Try as we might to make things fool proof each year they produce an improved fool.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Well lets find where they

are doing the product improvement (making a better fool) and put a sticker on it.I suspect it will not matter what it says.

 

[Ross]

Bill, The sticker might be be about 10 inches

long and sharp on two edges. *yks

 

[Chris Connor]

Unreasonable acts

The vessel involved in the occurrence was working in Northern waters. They had just put in a gruelling sixteen plus hour day (there were no restrictions on hours of work for fishermen). They were cold, tired and wet. They likely did not properly evaluate the risk of running the generator in a separate compartment (the fish hold).A Provincial Labour inspector was testing the diesel stove for exhaust leaks when my partner and I arrived. It was thought the fish hold was sealed and they suspected the stove. The hold was not sealed. Once started, the generator produced CO at dangerous levels within minutes. The exhaust on the generator was damaged and the combustion was incomplete - this may have been a factor as well. I guess you could argue that if the crew were cold, tired and wet they wouldn't have read the notice anyway. You would probably be correct. While working in the CCG, a colleague of mine nearly succumbed to CO poisoning on a SAR mission while dewatering a space in a boat with a gasoline driven salvage pump. The pump was on deck in open air with the suction hose fed down through a hatch. Again, the risk was underappreciated. We were lucky.I am a private pilot. In those airplanes that are amatuer built or owner maintained the operator must place a placard stating that the aircraft in not maintained by a certified mechanic. The placard is not there for the pilot/owner of the aircraft; It's there solely to inform his passengers of the risk of flying in that particular aircraft! Every aircraft I have flown has a CO detector.I think the greatest risk is the possibility of leaking exhaust gases from a running aux. engine inside a vessel. I check my exhaust regularly; I have a CO detector installed below.A sticker is probably the the least prescriptive way of 'educating' or reminding people about the risks of CO. More prescriptive measures would be to enforce mandatory installation of CO detectors (not presently required but highly recommended in Canada) or require mandatory training, e.g. CO in the cockpit is taught to pilots when they are studying for their license. However, you could also take the view that it's all about the reducing exposure to potential lawsuits; You may be correct.It would be interesting to determine what motivated the agency to include the sticker in your licensing package this year. Has the NTSB or USCG or some other agency identified a trend or elevated frequency of this type of accident in your area? Has there been a highly public accident locally?I am not a big fan of stickers. But again, I have a very healthy respect and understanding of the risks involved. In accident investigation, sometimes the investigator is left with the task of determining why reasonable people do unreasonable things. The organization I worked for did investigations to determine cause and contributing factors so that they could make recommendations to prevent reoccurrence of the event. It is not an enforsement agency.The greatest risk I have had typing this is to use 'CO' and not 'CO2'; I have corrected myself at least once!I am leaving today for Australia; twelve times zones away. I am required to arrive a day early and stay in a local hotel prior to going offshore so that I am properly rested. Hopefully to prevent unsafe acts on my part! I can't get out of my own way after the flights.Cheers,Chris

 

[Ross]

Chris, Have a good and safe trip.

And thanks for your detailed replies.

 

[Steve Dion]

Possibly a warning for ski boats?

This could be a warning for the ski boats. There have been several deaths with people hanging on to the swim platform and being towed around that way. Of course we all know that if you stick your face in the exhaust you can get CO poisoning.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Kind of a fun thread, considering the subject.

As in; Death.Some thoughts. This thread and the whole series of events that led up to it are a non-issue in a country governed by Spanish Law. Under their system the individual is responsible to keep his eyes open and educate himself. I've driven in Mexico and ridden in other Spanish-law countries. Scary. Like the huge hole in the middle of the street in downtown Lapaz. No warning signs or barricades. One lane completely chopped off. And deep too. Ouch. As a human, one is expected to watch where they are going or stay home. You won't find much access for the handicapped in those countries. Of course, under English law the opposite system is in place. I think we're safer under such a system but,,,,, damn, it's annoying. When I'm looking for the step-ladder, I look for the stickers instead. Washington State stickers: I've not received one. Just what I want though. A orange colored sticker right in the middle of my cabin. The other placards have no such requirement.And, as usual, our State seems to be sending this stuff to people with no regard for the likelihood of such a disaster happening. ANYBODY EVER HEARD OF A DIESEL BOAT ENGINE CAUSING CO POISONING? I haven't. I'm not sure how much CO they put out, but it's not much. Just like the FACT that diesel fuel can't explode unless it's 'misted' and subjected to very high heat, or a diesel engine CANNOT backfire. Thusly there's no need to shutdown during fueling. But I digress. Where was I going with this? Oh yeah! (sorry, more thoughts) Chris, possibly what motivated the State to issue stickers was a knee-jerk. This past winter many (12 or so)immigrants to our country living in our area died. They were trying to keep warm using hibachi's for indoor heat. They didn't know our structures weren't built like a grass shack. Heat was heat. Gotta go check the mailbox for my sticker.

 

[Tom Spohn]

Winter Storm

Last November Washington State suffered from and almost "perfect" storm. Two low pressure areas combined in the East Pacific and came ashore with near hurricane force. Many trees were knocked down and there was lots of damage. As a result the power was out for up to 6 days for some people. Added to this were record low temperatures. So what did people do? Generators were sold out at the local home improvement stores as folks tried to get some heat and power going. Some families brought their new generators along with charcoal and propane grills indoors to get some warmth. Unfortunately there were quite a few deaths and injuries that resulted by having this equipment inside. The immigrant community around Seattle was especially hard hit as the warnings could not always be understood. I believe that the State is doing what it can to warn folks of CO poisoning. Remember that these stickers will not just go on sailboats and yachts owned by English speakers. They will also go on small fishing boats worked by Asian and other ethinic minorities that may be English challenged. If they save one life or even one trip to the hospital they are worth it.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

And what a storm it was! But not here.

Every county in western Washington was declared a disaster area,,,except ours. And we are right in the middle of them. Is that weird or what?!And here's more-weird; We were warned of the storm five days ahead of it. Great! If you understood English. About two days before it hit us, our power went out. It was off for a day and a half. No wind. Nothing! And nothing was in the press that explained why it was off. Our 15 KW automatic generator got a warm-up for the storm. Then, right after the shore-power came on, the storm came in. Our lights didn't even flicker! I told you it was a weird storm.P.S. Tom, I'm not so sure that those stickers will be worth it. Life-saving expenditures in our country have a cost-benefit test. Years ago the 'test' was $1.2 million. That's how much money spent for each life saved was an acceptable expenditure. More than that? Sorry. But we can help with the funeral. I don't know what the threshold is today. But making such common sense behavior, a 'mandatory' State law requiring prominent posting on all BOATS/YACHTS, once again points out how little POWER we boaters have in our state. We are the only citizens still paying an excise tax. The tax was repealed for everyone else. Not us. They forgot.

 

[Terry Cox]

Hi Ross, the link below provides...

the information that you requested. Hope this helps.Terryhttp://www.indsci.com/sup_gi_tox_co2.asp

 

[Ross]

Thanks Terry, Confirms my statements about the

non-toxic nature of CO2. It will sufficate you but it gives plenty of warning. CO is not so kind. The one thing that I have never understood is why or how people can tolerate the stink of gasoline engine exhaust long enough to suffer CO poisoning.

 

[Terry Cox]

Hi Ross, my apologies for dwelling on the term..

toxic. The industry categorizes both carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide gases as toxic. The problem with each on a boat is they are odorless and heavier than air, so they tend to gather in places with minimal ventilation such as bilges or living quarters making them difficult to detect and especially hazardous. I am no expert on the matter of toxic gases, just what I've read. Terry

 

[Ross]

Terry please do not be deceived CO is not heavier

than air but it is a toxin! CO2 Is heavier than air and is an asphixiant but is not a toxin. The data sheet that you linked said as much. A toxin is a poison But an asphixiant may be nothing more than a rag stuffed into your mouth. I used to carry on long and detailed conversations with the chief toxicologist at Edgewood Arsenal, MD.

 

[Mike B]

CO can linger

Ross as previously mentioned CO is heavier than air, it can also linger. We used to be docked at Farley State Marina in Atlantic City, NJ. The father of a family of three on the dock had run his engines for 15-20 mins one evening. All the ports and hatches were closed up in anticipation of heading to bed. He made the mistake of leaving the cabin door open, which turned out to be nearly fatal. Seems as though the engines ran fairly clean and didn't produce the odor of which you speak. Dad finally shut the engines down, closed the cabin door and went to bed. What he didn't know was that he had accumulated enough CO in the cabin to kill them all. As luck would have it his teenage son woke up at apx 3AM feeling rather sickly. When he tried to raise his parents and they didn't respond he had the good common sense to call for help, which arrived in a hurry. By the time they got there Dad was in cardiac arrest, Mom fortunately was in slightly better shape. They had to defrib Dad but were able to bring him back. Needless to say a lot of folks on the dock went out and bought CO detectors ASAP. One final note, the CO can come from your neighbors boat as well, so don't ignore the fool that runs his engines for no apparent reason. Same goes goes for the captain that pulls into their slip and let's them run for 10-15 mins while they tie their baby up. While I try to do so with a smile, I'm not timid about asking or even telling someone to shut them down your killing me.Mike