Sticker Shock!

[Gary Wyngarden]

I just received my annual state license renewal stickers covering my boat until June, 2008. Along with them came another decal in orange warning the reader against the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning. On the back is a statement that "Washington State law requires the owner to apply the sticker on the interior of the vessel where it will be visible to passengers."This will be added to the placards that warn against discharge of oil, dumping of trash, throwing plastic overboard, etc., etc., etc.Don't get me wrong. I'm concerned about CO and have a detector on board. I don't dump oil overboard or trash or plastic, or any of those other bad things. But does anyone seriously think these placards and decals actually save lives or promote compliance with laws?I'm envisioning a decal for the boom warning about the possibility of injury or death in an accidental jibe, or maybe a sign to hang on the lifelines warning about the danger of drowning or hypothermia if you fall overboard.Where does this end? Is this yet another example of overregulation or have I gone overboard on the subject?Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5

 

[Ross]

Gary, I have a placard warning not

to sail within three miles of the horizon.

 

[Brian D]

In California...

We have the same sticker. However, it must be placed on the exterior of the vessel near the location of CO2 emissions. Why don't cars have these stickers? They produce more CO2 in one day than a sailboat will in its entire life cycle?

 

[Ross]

BrianD, one of the reasons for the external

sticker has been the number of deaths from CO associated with the sport of hanging onto the swim platform on the powerboats and being dragged through the water. If kids started to skateboard behind cars then you would see the stickers on cars.

 

[Les]

Some added but probably useless information

Ah, Gary, my island friend... Many years ago there was some research on perception and communications. If I remember it correctly, if we look at a posted message more then four times we really don't see it afterward even though it is still there. It blends into the blur of things that we see. That is why advertising on the street is more effective if it is moving or changes color, hense blinking neon lights.Since I live in the same state I intend to make a copy of it, reduce it in size and post it on my bulletin board.Now an aside to the people on this thread. A few years back, I bought a Crate and Barrel bulletin board that was magnetic and thumb tack useable. About 2 feet by a foot and a half in size. I placed it the boat near the companionway. What an excellent addition to my boat. It is surprising how many notices, business cards, bits of information that we keep on that bulletin board. When entering Canada, they give me a number that I must keep until I leave and that goes on the bulletin board. Web site addresses go there until I can get home to check them out. Amazing collector of "stuff." If you have room I highly recommend a bulletin board.And that is where my latest CO sticker will go and after seeing four time probably will never notice it again.Les

 

[abe]

Our government at work....don't they have...

anything else to do? Worthless stickers created by worthless and ignorant politicians.abe

 

[Don s/v Tellico]

It's not he gov't...

it's the people who run the gov't. But, there have been some pretty tragic CO deaths with houseboats and stuff in the Midwest. Not sure the sticker really works, but hey...have you bought a ladder recently? Covered in em...I want one for the prob that says "Danger". But again, there was a terrific article a few months back in Seaworthy, the BOATUS safety insurance rag. A former president of Chris Craft was hit by his dinghy outboard in a freak accident. Stories like that def make you pay attention.

 

[Ross]

Let's try to get our information correct.

The gas "CO" carbon monoxide is toxic and attaches to the hemoglobin preventing the blood from carrying oxygen. The gas CO2 carbon dioxide is non-toxic and only displaces oxygen. CO2 is the product of complete combustion of carbon. CO is the result of incomplete combustion and is flammable and used for fuel in some industrial operations.

 

[David10790]

This sticker prevents lawsuits

That is its only purpose. It is most unlikely to prevent loss of life or even injury. However, the next time some kid is suffocated hanging off the back of the boat and sucking exhaust, the lawyer who sues the boat owner will have a slightly harder time, and for sure will not be able to sue the State for failing to warn that stupidity can be lethal. Which, in our zero responsibility society, is obviously its job. So the sticker protects the state from liability, and maybe protects you. Cheaper than the alternative, which is killing all the lawyers, or even worse, making people take responsibility for their own actions. (BTW just in case you're wondering, called to Bar of Ontario in '78).

 

[Sean]

Sticker

Gary, I didn't receive a sticker like that last week with my renewal. BTW, I am still wondering why kind of sailing Dink you had pictured in Sail magazine? It looks like it could be a Ranger Minto.

 

[Chris Connor]

Death by CO2 poisoning

Good afternoon all,For what it's worth,...In a former life I was a senior investigator for the TSB of Canada (NTSB).The last investigation on which I deployed to the field on was a multiple fatality in a fishing vessel in Eastern Canada. Cause of death was CO2 poisoning. Two dead, one in a coma, two with other health issues, two uninjured; All were related family.It was a tradgedy. Imagine how that family's lives might have been different if the presence of a sticker might have prompted one of them to think of the risk of running a portable generator in an enclosed space onboard a small fishing vessel?It is likely the decision to include the sticker was the result of investigations that have identified CO2 as an elevated risk. My $0.02 worth anywayRegards,Chris Connor

 

[abe]

Mr. investigator...shouldn't it be CO for carbon

monoxide and not CO2? You make the assumption that these people would have been saved by a "sticker"...no substitute for stupidity. abe

 

[abe]

Scarry when a senior investigator does not know...

the difference between CO and CO2. Then again, might not be an investigator after all.my 1 centabe

 

[Chris Connor]

My apology - you are correct.

Hello all,Sorry for that.Yes, CO2 is carbon dioxide and is more or less harmless. CO is Carbon Monoxide and is deadly.I won't bother to comment on the rest.I guess we all make mistakes,.... Otherwise there would be no need for accident investigators.Regards,Chris Connor.

 

[Terry Cox]

Harmless!?. Carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide...

will kill you in sufficient amounts. I would not consider either of them harmless. That is one of the hazards associated with dry ice used in boat coolers is the evaporation and release of toxic carbon dioxide.Terry

 

[Ross]

Terry, Carbon dioxide will sufficate you but it

is not toxic. Carbon monoxide will not sufficate you it will shut down your body's ability to use oxygen. If you are exposed to excess CO2 being removed to fresh air and resusitating you, if you have stopped breathing you save your life. But with CO exposure moving you to fresh air will only stop the damage but will not reverse the damage, For that you need medical intervention or you will die.

 

[Ross]

Iread a n explanation of the difference between

venomous and poisonous. Venomous will make you sick if it bites you. Poisonous will make you sick if you bite it. Both case involve toxins.

 

[Chris Connor]

Sorry! I've lost the plot.

Hello Again,Yes, Carbon Dioxide can be deadly too. In moderate to high concentration carbon dioxide acts as an asphyxiant. It is a respiratory stimulant. In the solid form dry ice in contact with the skin will quickly cause serious freeeze damage, so it should not be held in the hand.I did not think that many sailboat operators are using dry ice as a refrigerant. Certainly, I am aware that in moderate to high concentrations it is dangerous hence my statement, "more or less harmless." Perhaps I should have added 'to the average sailboat operator that is or may be using dry ice as a refrigerant!" But then we will have gone full circle re: stupid stickers.It is my understanding that that the number one cause of accidental death to seaman worldwide is confined space entry and asphyxiation or poisoning by H2S, CO or lack of O2. I am acutely aware of the dangers. I am still in a related industry.I have to admit,... I am a little battered by the responses. The accident I investigated was real. The deaths were real. The injuries to the casualties were real. The cause of death was CO.I believe I originally interposed CO2 with CO because of all of the recent news about green house gases and global warning. I am sure there is some human factors explanation.Originally, I was trying to make sense of the requirement to post a sticker warning of CO poisoning and my personal experiences. Again, my apologies to anyone I have offended I won't bother to give my $0.02 in the future.Regards,Chris

 

[Ross]

Chris, Please don't be put off by a bit of

nit picking. You certainly were not the first to substitute CO2 for CO. I posted to only point out that there is a profound difference in the effects. You were not singled out or targeted. If you feel so, please accept our apologies. There was no offence intended. You have the means to provide good and useful experience to this forum, please stay with us.Ross

 

[Tim C350 April IV]

Do you have a CO detector aboard?

So after all that, sticker or no sticker, do you have a working CO (Carbon Monoxide) detector onboard your boat? How about in your home?If you don't, you might consider it. Cheap insurance. Shouldn't need a sticker - or a bunch of nitpickers - to do something smart for yourself and your family.Good Luck!Tim BroganApril IV C350 #68Seattle