Steaming light or Bow light

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Fred Ficarra

Dan, you speaketh with great wisdom,

Every now and then someone on this web site says something good enough to give me goose bumps and chills. Dan, I'm still cold.
 
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John Visser

The Rule of the Road

When all three lights I see ahead, I turn to Starboard and show my Red: Green to Green, Red to Red, Perfect Safety -- Go Ahead. But if to Starboard Red appear, It is my duty to keep clear -- To act as judgment says is proper: To Port or Starboard, Back or Stop her. And if upon my Port is seen A Steamer's Starboard light of Green, I hold my course and watch to see That Green to Port keeps Clear of me. Both in safety and in doubt Always keep a good look out. In Danger, with no room to turn, Ease her, Stop her, Go Astern.
 
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John Visser

Pneumonics For Light Identification

Red, White, Red - Restricted Ability Ahead Red over Red - The Captain Is Dead Three Reds in a Row - No Room Below Red Over White - Fishing at night Red Over Green - Sailing Machine White Over Red - Pilot Ahead Yellow Over Yellow - A pushing or Hip Towing Fellow Green Over White - Trawling at Night Yellow Over White - My Towline is Tight Three Greens in a Cross - Mineclearing Boss GREEN to GREEN, RED to RED - Perfect Safety Go Ahead
 
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barrett

No such thing as Right Of Way??? Wanna Bet?

Actually it is STAND ON, GIVE WAY or NOT IMPEDE...In the INTERNATIONAL ColRegs 72...The phrase "right of way",does "exist" in the Nav Rules (colregs 72) According to The United State Coast Guard, "right of way" is used in the Nav Rules as an INTENTIONAL carry over from the old "river rules"... International Navigation Rules do not make reference to "right of way", vessels shall either "stand on", "give way" or "not impede". The Inland Navigation Rules DO make mention of "right of way";particularly in Rule 9. Look it up...You do have a copy right?? The reason it does is because it's "original rule language" that has been held over for eons from either the Western River Rules, Pilot Rules or old Inland Rules. It's not an oversight nor is there an effort to "marry" both versions. OKAY,OKAY OKAY!!! I actually agree with the premise...I know what you are saying is that the rules are not there to establish an unalienable "Right of Way"...My Great Grand-daddy use to say, "Right of way is something you NEVER have, but can always give" and I agree with that... For example, as the rules state,and I quote:(RULE 8 action to avoide collision) 1) "A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel. 2) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the rules of this part. 3) A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision." RonD's post is correct regarding "legality" of "Right of Way", and the intent of the Rules, and vessel master obligations. The fact remains though that the phrase "RIGHT OF WAY" does exist in the Nav Rules, and in some inland instances "right of way" is mandated (also in some military basins if I recall correctly)...and if you take a bar bet that it doesn't exist, or there is no such thing..some old salt with a copy is gonna beat you for a beer... you will lose, but learn! :) Another post states "and please remember lights on the water are for others to see you, not for you to see. no one is ever going to be faulted for having too many lights on, so if in doubt turn them all on"...Not actually true...lights are for other skippers/watch to "Read" so they know what you are, and what you are doing... Might just be that with everylight on, you are inadvertantly signaling you are a working vessel engaged in trawling,( and that's just one example in scores of what you could be indicating) ...okay for you maybe, but creates a hazard for those trying to navigate around the stuff you are signaling you are dragging in the water,and might actually lead to a collision...
 
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dan

reply to barrett of Hawaii

I didnt see anything that disputes my orginal writing except maybe the techanical language. sounds like your great grand daddy would agree with me! the beer is on me ;)
 
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Steve Ray

For the seemingly growing of numbskulls

As for the comment on the growing numbers of numbskulls (Augue Byllott, of MT. Sinai Harbor N.Y.) it appears there are a number of experianced numbskulls out there to have so many questions raised for such a simple question of navigational light trivia. As for the Cheasapeak Bay area, there are so many boats out at night during the summer season without lights and some with thier own interpetation of the "rules" for lights, I thought it would be an interesting question. After haveing sailed most of my 30 years on the water predominatly the micronesia islands where boats are far between ships, the "Bay" is quite crowded. Seems to me I'm "digesting" quite a bit of information from many years of "water experiance" both from sailors and that other brand of boating, I belive to be called "power boaters". As for the beer bets, there's to many experts and true sailors drink rum.:)
 
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barrett

Actually Steve,

true sailors drink what ever they want... But only true numbskulls ask... Submitted by Steve Ray of Solomons Island Maryland on 08/20 at 12:29PM regarding General_interest "So with the bow light on and the stern light on only, then the vessel has the right of way while under sail?" ....and then gets upset at those who reply! Kinda puzzling to me that you'd ask a question and then be pissed at those who tried to answer it, and the related questions that arose from the original...Even if you disagreed with them...
 
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barrett

Reply to Dan's reply...

Oh no Dan...I was refering to the "There is no such thing as right away" from a technical standpoint, and to that only from the perspective of losing a bet...I totally agree with the staement that Right away is NEVER something you have, but always something you can give...Thier is such a thing as right away in the nav rules is all,and if someone comes away from this posting with the idea it isn't there, they will actually probably be better off sailing safety wise...but not in a bar bet! While I do not agree with your statement about lighting of a vessel , the next beers on me...
 
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Joe

Here's a bar bet for you....

...Two vessels are approaching a bridge from opposite sides. There is only room for one vessel at a time to pass under the bridge. The question is: which boat is the "right away" vessel? And would that make the other the "later on" vessel???
 
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alan

You will need to get really specific here as...

...I think that you want to ask a questine that seems to have no answer. In reallity the rules under almost all circumstances will provide an answer. So, specify. alan P.S. yeah, yeah, yeah, NO we are talking about a mental exercise here, not an actual game of chicken. Well, unless it's a race of course ;^)
 
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Paul

Joe's Bar Bet

Excellent! I have no idea what the answer is. The COLREGS don't seem to cover this situation. Obviously, you have to assume that the vessels have no conventional way to determine who gives way, i.e. neither (or both) vessel is constrained by its draft, the vessels are not sailing on opposite tacks, etc. Can't wait to hear the answer. Paul
 
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Rick Webb

The One Going UpStream

Is the give way boat, seems to me off the top of my head. If there is no "stream" there must be a convention like the boat to the nort or east being tha stand on boat. What is the answer? I am too lazt to look it up myself.
 
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dan

might is right

I dont know about the rules but, IMHO the bridge doesnt have anything to do with it. for safety sake on my boat it is simply, the smaller boat gives away. here again, you duty is to avoid accidents. not to worry about who is right. and for barrett, if I am seen with too many lights on and it forces someone to slow down to see if I am "towing" something great. it has been my experience that most "boaters" have no idea what the formation of lights mean and could care less! I just want to make sure they see me, I dont give a damn if they think Im a shrimp trawler, AS LONG AS THEY CAN SEE ME!
 
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Dave M

Bar Bet Answer

Rule 9 - The vessel proceeding downstream... (ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing. Also, note the use of the term 'Right of Way'. Link is to Nav. Rules Online
 
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Steve Ray

Howly replies

Not upset with the replys, numbskulls can apply to whom ever the shoe fits. As for the growing numbers of them, it shows how popular the boating community is becoming. For those of us who have had the opportunity to see weekend boaters, launching, operating, etc... (vast majority of boaters, sail and power)which most of us started out as, experiance gained through comments such as these stated can give vast amounts of information. Disagreement with the comments? No, just different perceptions on the original question that has evidently raised many questions of "right of way" (sail boat under sail at night without mechanical propulsion)per say. As for having been in the pacific where there is steering room still, even in Hawaii, the experiance of the Cheasapeak Bay is much different. There are many skilled sailors with lots of experiance out there. This state requires individuals born after 1972 to obtain a boating completetion course before a registration will be issued. Even with the courses that are mandated for vessel owners, It's like driving on the freeway where everything goes. I asked the question due to the belief that a sailing vessel with a stern and bow lights under sail should give way to a powered vessel? As I see it, the only dumb question is the one that wasn't asked. Hafa'A day, Totamali' (Aloha).
 
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barrett

Reply to Might is Right...

I agree with "Tonnage ALWAYS having right away"...However,I can't agree with your light statement... You wrote: "and for barrett, if I am seen with too many lights on and it forces someone to slow down to see if I am "towing" something great. it has been my experience that most "boaters" have no idea what the formation of lights mean and could care less! I just want to make sure they see me, I dont give a damn if they think Im a shrimp trawler, AS LONG AS THEY CAN SEE ME! YOU are not showing lights JUST to be seen and for your own personal safety. That is why there are rules regarding displaying lights to prevent collisions. You should care about causing someone else to have potential problems because of you...You should also really care because working boats are not slowing down to look and see if you are towing something...if you signal you are towing something,to them you are, especially at night when they can't see it's just some uneducated recreational boater who doesn't know any better. And, what if you signal you are the giveway vessel and then you don't give way? OOOPS! Anyway, the best way to get seen is not to turn on every light you have. Rather, take your handle held spot ( you do have one on board right?) and don't even bother to shine it on your sails...just shine it across the pilothouse windows or bridge of the vessel you want to see you...not a long blinding shine, just a sweep across the house once or twice...If you are going to be seen at all,they'll see you.
 
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dan

Dave & Barrett

Dave, your reply comes from the Inland Rules, no where in the International Rules does the term "right of way" appear except in Rule 14(d)which refers to the Inland Rules. Barrett, re-read International Rule 20(b) and get back with me! either way you go, it is very plain that you are required to avoid accidents regardless of give way, stand on, or God forbid "right of way" if you have to use that term!
 
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barrett

Dan...

as you told me to look at the following, I can only assume you believe it supports your "turn every light on" statement.............I am very familiar with rule 20b...It basically says that no other lights that could cause lookout interference, or confusion with the proper display of proper nav lights, shall be exibited....but let me copy and paste it here anyway... "APPLICATION Rule 20 b..."The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out" You seriously believe that means you can/should turn on all your lights? If you really believe the purpose of this regulation is that anything goes as you seem to think, then hows about just sticking a disco ball on top of your mast...they'll see ya then!You understand that they are telling you not to turn on all your Nav lights right? You get it that "no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified" is saying no other lights that can be mistaken as (nav) lights specified in the rules should be on right? Turning all your lights on breaks EVERYONE of the 3 restrictions listed above...... 1)It impairs the visibility of your proper lights,meaning that OTHERS cannot see your real lights because of all the others on... 2)Having all your lights on totally dilutes the distinctive character of the lights you are suppose to be displaying,a very important purpose of nav lights! 3)And,it interfers with your OWN lookout, in that with decklights,spreaderlights,steaming lights,etc.., night vision is lost,and hazzards and others vessels lights cannot be ascertained. You flashing a hand spot does not delude your nav lights,ruin someone elses ability to ascertain your lights character or break any other colregs...It is very commonly used to attract attention, even by the USCG and the US Navy. The Navy use spots with morris code regularly for non-radio communication between ships bridges. I mean, think about it Dan...why would they even HAVE rules concerning lights if it was just peachy keen to turn on everything? As for Inland rules vs International rules...I said that right of way is not mentioned in International rules, only in Inland rules in my first post...What Dan, Inland rules aren't navigation rules??? Take a course dude...Try to get your 100 ton saying what your saying on these post as answers on the tests or in discussion with your instructor...geez...There are none as blind as those who refuse to see...unless of course it's the look out on a boat who's skipper orders every light turned on! :)
 
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Ed Ruiz

How about a Cruise ship at night?

Those things are lit up like the Vegas Strip! Are they in violation of the col-regs when they're all aglow? Seems to me, there's room for interpretation of the col-regs. Bottom line, do whatever you can to avoid a collision. I don't think the CG will fault you if your lights (authorized or not) helped others see you, which helped them avoid a collision with you. That's just my $0.02. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
 
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barrett

Yes, cruise ship are lit up,

and so are Oil Platforms, and other working vessels, and tankers,...and so are coastlines...That is not the point...I don't care if someone wants to turn all thier lights on, even though it is not the best way to get noticed, and very poor seamanship...I've sailed myself out of all kinds a messes others have caused, and quite a few of my own design, so I'm confident I'll get by, just don't tell me the rules support it when they don't...OR that it makes good sense to have "turning all your light's on" as lighting SOP on your 40 foot sailboat...cause it doesn't. Ed, as to your question about cruise ships, vessels over 50 meters have many different rules than smaller vessels...There are other differences of rule for vessels that carry passengers for hire...many differences, but I'll just mention one rule...thier nav lights are required to be stonger -more visable at greater distances- and out shine lesser lights on board. For example, your mastheadlight,if you are required to have one, must be visible at 2 miles... a cruiseships masthead light (yes they DO TO have one)must be visible for 6 miles. Thier other nav lights are also required to be stronger & brighter... When in a closer proximity to a cruise ship,they look very bright, but when you see one from a distance and are trying to figure out if you are on a collision course, you can see thier regulated-ly brighter nav lights easily ... Also,those that are steering the ship are on a bridge that is not all lit-up,it is isolated, and kept 'red lighted', most of the time...Those steering the ship do not see all those lights and the fact that on my little sailboat I might be blinded by my own lights is just one reason the NAV Rules don't want me to turn on all my lights...I am not saying it is perfect...Just two years ago off the California Coast as I was set for Alaska, I thought an oil rig was moving! I was flipping out because we were on a collision course and he shouldn't even be moving!!! AAAAHHH!!! I turned to starboard and gave way, way away... Turned out to be a fishing vessel, with enough lights lit to be a major league ball park with a night game going on...I couldn't see his nav lights at all through the brightness of everything else he had on, and when I raised them on VHF, they hadn't seen me at all over there own lights or on thier radar...
 
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