Split Back Stay

[Sylvain]

I just completed a modification that I really wanted.
The Back Stay on the H33C is split and anchored just behind the wheel on each side. Whenever I needed to go forward,my shoulder would get caught in it and that was bugging me.

I had two 33 ft 3/16 back stays made with swage studs on one end and a fork at the other. I then cut the original back stay 9 ft 4 in from each end. I used wire clamps (two on each ends) to slice the two length together. I was able to adjust the 1/4 in original stay parts by sliding them. I think it's about 9ft 5in now. The cost wasn't bad and now it's freedom. It made such a difference. I now can comfortably go from the helm to the cabin to without having to twist and bend.

A definite improvement. I'll post some photos.

Cheers,
Sylvain

 

[Ed Schenck]

Can't quite visualize your modification. You spliced the two stays about ten feet from the deck? Where do they mount at the deck? I thought we just read about the mod here recently. But I think the termination point was at the ends of the toerail.

 

[Manny]

ummm...

Are you saying that you have two backstays now that are both spliced with wire clamps? Something similar to this: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
I'm sure others will chime in but it does not sound safe to me if that is the case. The wire is relatively inexpensive compared to the fittings and swaging, the additional 9' 5" per side probably would have been around the same price or cheaper than the clamps...
Hopefully I misunderstood your description.

M

 

[Ed Schenck]

Here are links to what I had remembered about the split H33 backstay problem:
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=798275&highlight=split
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=31988&highlight=rigging

 

[Sylvain]

Guys,
Maybe something got lost in the translation.
The original split point for the upside down Y back stay was about ten feet up.
The idea is was to move that split point way up. the stays are using the same anchor points and I'm using the same bronze turnbuckles. From these turnbuckles, go up 33 ft and attach to the same triangle plate.

The reason I learned by experience that getting it perfect the first time never quite happens. So, the top single stay was doubled up and securely clamped with 4 marine wire clamps http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10582|10272&product=8715265&code=880005
These are much heavier than the ones from Home Depot. I did have to fiddle with adjusting the length and that's why I used these clamps. It's solid.
I'm not planning on crossing the ocean for the next 6 weeks.

Once the mast comes down for the winter, I'll get a new "top portion" made. I tend to lean toward a couple of new Sta-Lok fittings and do it myself.

 

[Sylvain]

Some photos I took tonight.
Photo 1 show the boat at some distance
Photo 4 is the home made adjuster.

 

[gray_penguin]

I have been wanting to do this for a long time. But I was thinking of using 2 stays all the way up to the mast head. Is there a reason you did not do your conversion the way I was thinking of doing it? I have not been up the mast to see but maybe there is not enough room to put another attachment point?

 

[Sylvain]

I think Ed did this.
The only reason I did it this way is that the guy at the shop said it would be "highly unconventional".
Having said that, the modification I ended up doing helped greatly in three ways:
1- I was able to measure and decide on a length without the nagging fear that it would be too long or too short because I could lengthen or shorten the top portion. It's very difficult to measure precisely for such a long wire. I couldn't take the gamble. Swage labour isn't cheap. With the wire clamps, I was able to adjust that top portion perfectly - after a couple of trips up the mast.
2- I used the original eye with the 1/2" pin at mast top and the original fork at the Y junction. I didn't have to worry about clearance or even worst, finding swage eyes for 3/16 wire with 1/2" hole which is the pin size up there.

And this is a benefit I didn't think about until it was installed...
3- I was able to adjust the tension of each stay by looking up to see if the top strait portion was centered. It wasn't although both turnbuckles were adjusted the same way. When it's centered, it means it's pulling evenly on each side.

I should have done this last year. I highly recommend this modification.

Next thing: Probably getting rid of the traveler in the cockpit and use two main sheats (port and starboard) on cabin top.

 

[jorgefife]

I think Ed did this.
The only reason I did it this way is that the guy at the shop said it would be "highly unconventional".
Having said that, the modification I ended up doing helped greatly in three ways:
1- I was able to measure and decide on a length without the nagging fear that it would be too long or too short because I could lengthen or shorten the top portion. It's very difficult to measure precisely for such a long wire. I couldn't take the gamble. Swage labour isn't cheap. With the wire clamps, I was able to adjust that top portion perfectly - after a couple of trips up the mast.
2- I used the original eye with the 1/2" pin at mast top and the original fork at the Y junction. I didn't have to worry about clearance or even worst, finding swage eyes for 3/16 wire with 1/2" hole which is the pin size up there.

And this is a benefit I didn't think about until it was installed...
3- I was able to adjust the tension of each stay by looking up to see if the top strait portion was centered. It wasn't although both turnbuckles were adjusted the same way. When it's centered, it means it's pulling evenly on each side.

I should have done this last year. I highly recommend this modification.

Next thing: Probably getting rid of the traveler in the cockpit and use two main sheats (port and starboard) on cabin top.

I like it a lot!
I have the same boat (82 model) and that backstay bothers me a lot
In essence, you moved the Y connector higher up, and secured each cable on either side.
Exactly where did you secure them at the bottom?
On the toe rail?
Which ring?

 

[Sylvain]

I didn't changed the anchor point which are u bolts through the tow rails. At least that's how it is set up on my boat. It looks like the original attach points.

I have boots over the turnbuckles so it may be hard to see.

I used two inexpensive blocks I had bought to fashion an adjuster with a line that leads to the stock (at least i think it is) stand up block on the port side.

As I said, this is relatively inexpensive and improves my quality of life while on the boat.

 

[jorgefife]

Guys,
Maybe something got lost in the translation.
The original split point for the upside down Y back stay was about ten feet up.
The idea is was to move that split point way up. the stays are using the same anchor points and I'm using the same bronze turnbuckles. From these turnbuckles, go up 33 ft and attach to the same triangle plate.

The reason I learned by experience that getting it perfect the first time never quite happens. So, the top single stay was doubled up and securely clamped with 4 marine wire clamps http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10582|10272&product=8715265&code=880005
These are much heavier than the ones from Home Depot. I did have to fiddle with adjusting the length and that's why I used these clamps. It's solid.
I'm not planning on crossing the ocean for the next 6 weeks.

Once the mast comes down for the winter, I'll get a new "top portion" made. I tend to lean toward a couple of new Sta-Lok fittings and do it myself.

I am so sorry for being a pain, but all is not clear to me: I have the same boat; I understand the part where you go up 33 feet from the turnbuckle, using the same triangle.
What confuses me is the part where you say " the top single stay was doubled up and secured with 4 clamps": so from the triangle up to the top of the mast, you have a double stay, still attached to the top of the triangle?
Is it for extra strength?
And did you do all of this with the mast up?
And lastly, what is a home made adjuster?
Where is it situated?
Thank you for helping a real dummy understand all of this stuff!

 

[Sylvain]

I am so sorry for being a pain, but all is not clear to me: I have the same boat; I understand the part where you go up 33 feet from the turnbuckle, using the same triangle.
What confuses me is the part where you say " the top single stay was doubled up and secured with 4 clamps": so from the triangle up to the top of the mast, you have a double stay, still attached to the top of the triangle?
Is it for extra strength?
And did you do all of this with the mast up?
And lastly, what is a home made adjuster?
Where is it situated?
Thank you for helping a real dummy understand all of this stuff!

Hey, I'm the one who should be clearer.

I did all this with the mast in place.

I had previously measured the desired future stays by attaching the main sail halyard to my 33 ft measuring tape hence the decision to make them 33 ft.

Once I got my pair of 3/16 stays (33 ft), I used the main sail halyard attached to the toe rail as far back as I could as a temporary back stay.

I removed the original stays (by loosening the turnbuckles) and threaded the new ones on the turnbuckles, probably 5 threads. I attached the new sections on the triangle plate with the 5/16 clevis pins and used the topping lift (I took the bolt off the back of the boom), added a hook to it and hooked up the triangle plate to it. I then used the topping lift line to hoist the whole thing and tension it enough so I could measure the top portion. Of course I had to climb the mast to do that but I have a set of mast steps (the blue webbing ladder) which makes it easier. From the pin on the mast head to the triangle joining plate, I had 9 ft 4 in.

I lowered the new back stays and used a cutting wheel to cut the original 1/4 in back stay. I marked each ends at 9 ft 1 in and cut the middle out. I ended up with two portions, one with the fork, one with the eye.

I laid the two beside each other "head to toe" slide the out to 9 ft 4 in and installed 4 wire rope clips in accordance with http://www.lexcocable.com/faqs-24.html

The tricky part was to now connect this section to the already installed twin back stays and hoist it up. As it turned out I really needed an other inch and some so down again, loosen the clips and slide / stretch the 1/4 in spliced wire to 9 ft 5 in and tighten the clips. Up the mast again and I was able to install the long 1/2 in pin at mast head without problems.

Adjusting the tension with the turnbuckles after that was without problem.

Back stay adjuster: I didn't reuse the original adjuster. It would have been 33 ft up there and I figured out an easier way. Before the stays went up, I clamped two Spintech 35 blocks about 15 feet up. They were clearing them at Princess Auto (a farming supply store originally) last year and had bought a bunch. One is a single block with becket the other is a fiddle block and it's rigged like a main sheat. It's a blue line because it's what I had but I'll change it to a plain white line soon. It works better than the original.

I hope this helps you.

Cheers,

 

[Ed Schenck]

Clears it up for me. Jorge might not be familiar with a "backstay adjuster". I don't think we have discussed that kind of tuning mechanism since he began work on his boat. And you did say, I hope, that you will eventually replace the "spliced" wire with a new single wire. You mentioned the very expensive DIY terminals. You can save a lot with having someone local swage the eye and stud. My marina has a machine for example.

 

[Sylvain]

Ed,
The DIY terminals are expensive and I have not decided yet how I'm going to do the next step: replacing the top portion. Now that I have the exact right length, installing a swage fitting would be cheaper even with labour (we spell it like that here) involved. And if you're lucky and your rigger is free at the time, you're out of there in 20 minutes.

The Norseman, Sta-lok, etc. fitting are cheaper if you don't have the exact measurement. You can't shorten your rigging and lengthening involved resourceful engineering. What my rigger recommended was to buy a Sta-lok and cut the top part conservatively and cut again if needed to. My solution with the wire rope clips made that fiddling so much easier.

There were tests made of slippage and break points of wire splicing with those clips and I'm pretty sure that all the bulletins and prescriptions if followed make a safe splice. I'm NOT trying to start a debate here but I'm not sweating it for the rest of my short enough season.

 

[Ed Schenck]

Agreed. So long as you aren't heading out(up) for Bermuda I think that backstay is fine. I had all new rigging made for my H37C recently, all swaged. Except for the forestay that is because I did not have one to send them. So they sent it long and I will have the marina swage on the stud to get the length exact.