SpeedSeal Life users.. Survey requested

[All U Get]

Nice, I have one on the engine and the gen set. I don't think I can measure anything that would be of help to you. My eyes are having a tough time with 1/8". I could check for scoring on the cover. How many decimals? Are impellers made with that close tolerance? Just thinking out loud. Maybe the water is just too cold and your boat is telling you it wants to sail south with the rest of us.

All U Get

 

[All U Get]

Just thought a little more about your wear issue. Three years ago our raw water pump on the gen set had similar wear on the cover. I replaced the pump until I got home and had a chance to look at it. The bearings had seized by then because the seal had been leaking. My thinking was the wear on the cover was the result of the bearings being a little loose from seawater eating at them. That pump with new seal and bearings is in the spares locker.

All U Get

 

[Maine Sail]

I have personally owned one Speed Seal and I service many others. I really don't understand all the hype. The time difference for me, other than with paper gasket pumps, and even then this is a 2-3 minute job, is almost non-existent. The Speed Seal wear plate / cover still wears just like any factory plate does except that it costs about 8X as much. My wear plate, for the same Westerbeke pump, costs me about $9.00.

I also don't believe making a simple cover plate considerably more complex, and with more wear items, is really a benefit to the consumer... The Johnson 09-810B-1 impeller for the Westerbeke 48080 pump is about $18.00 (last batch I bought cost me $15.25 each) and the Speed Seal bearing disc kit is $18.00 (my wear plate is $9.00)? We are supposedly doubling the life of the impeller but then we'll need to replace the bearing discs for the same price or more than the impeller. On top of that, the kit itself is $100.00...

I've simply gone back to the standard Westerbeke pump and I just replace the impeller yearly, as one really should, and as I walways did even with the Speed Seal.. I mean really, you take it out for winter, when doing a "proper" winterization, why for the mere $18.00 re-use it in the spring???

That Johnson made Westerbeke pump uses actual bearings, not sloppy bushings, so it would be very, very doubtful that the shaft is off center.. I suspect the Speed Seal simply does not go back on in the same exact location after each servicing due to some sloppy tolerances with the bolt holes??

 

[uncledom]

Rich, it is a life with the plastic bushing and I have a magnifying glass and two mics on board. I wasn't going to fuss with it till spring but in the interest of science I will check it next time I'm there.

 

[JamesG161]

I also don't believe making a simple cover plate considerably more complex, and with more wear items, is really a benefit to the consumer..

One important wear factor we have to consider when motoring in rivers, the Mississippi Sound and Lake Pontchartrain (kloudie1) is...
SILT in the waters!

Silt can act like a "polishing compound".

Rubber is a "resilient " material that gives way to wearing particles. I suspect the rubber used in the impeller is more factor than metal parts. The higher the rubber durometer (hardness) the faster the impeller/plate wear.
Jim...

PS: Trivia: A bowling ball is made from high durometer rubber.

 

[Gunni]

Gunni-
What pump do you have? How many hours on the cover? Specifically, how do you install the cover? Do you center the cover on the pump, or just slide on the cover and tighten the thumbscrews?

Johnson sea water pump (Yanmar 129670-42513), on a 4JH3E motor. Over 350 hour so far. One thing I noticed is that my SpeedSeal Life is different than yours, mine has no center post. The bronze bearing plate is solid and lays on the Teflon wear bearing underneath resulting in a cover plate that is flush and with only a circular seam on the inside where the cover and the bearing plate meet. I do nothing special to align the cover on install and suspect that it does not matter (for my model). Effectively the impeller presses against a solid bronze disk that rides on a Teflon bearing.

 

[walmsleyc]

I've the the Speedseal Life on a 3GM30F. Had it on for about 5 years. I have not noticed any abnormal wear, but I have not inspected to the level at which you have done.

On the 3GM30 engines, the pump cover faces backwards, and removing the original cover plate absolutely requires pump removal, even just for impeller inspection. My model used paper gaskets.

Contrary to Mainsails observations (which I don't entirely disagree with), on these Yanmars, I now have a plate that includes an o-ring, so I don't have to fart around with paper gaskets, and I can do an inspection without removing the pump (tricky by not impossible to reach behind to undo the knurled screws). Actually doing a impeller replacement requires a pump removal anyway. Perhaps not completely worth the price, but I do find some value in it.

Last year, I inadvertently put the "Life" part of the speedseal to a run dry test. At haulout, in the hubbub of trying to keep things moving along without wasting time, I forgot to turn my engine off before I hopped off the boat. During the haul and setting of the boat on its cradle, the engine was putting away with no cooling water. It must have been 5+ minutes before I got a ladder to the boat to shut the engine off. The impeller survived that without any problems.

Chris

 

[Gunni]

The run-dry feature was the biggest consideration for me. After spending hours pulling a genset raw water circuit apart to find broken impeller vanes after a 5 minute run-dry screw up I was looking for some insurance. My genset cannot be fit with a SpeedSeal Life cover and the impeller shows the end-wear typical of an impeller sliding against a fixed cover plate.

 

[Justin_NSA]

I'm seeing from the responses that the Life SpeedSeal is an improvement on wear reduction and R&R'ing the impeller. I'm pleased with my decision to install one. That's my $.02 YMMV.

 

[Rich Stidger]

I have personally owned one Speed Seal and I service many others. I really don't understand all the hype. The time difference for me, other than with paper gasket pumps, and even then this is a 2-3 minute job, is almost non-existent. The Speed Seal wear plate / cover still wears just like any factory plate does except that it costs about 8X as much. My wear plate, for the same Westerbeke pump, costs me about $9.00.
<SNIP>
That Johnson made Westerbeke pump uses actual bearings, not sloppy bushings, so it would be very, very doubtful that the shaft is off center.. I suspect the Speed Seal simply does not go back on in the same exact location after each servicing due to some sloppy tolerances with the bolt holes??

The point of the Speedseal Life for me was that with reduced friction my impellers won't self-destruct and throw pieces everywhere requiring me to search for them. In that respect, my first year's use with the Speedseal Life appears to be a success. My pump already had an O-ring seal so the paper gasket irritation wasn't a factor. The wear factor on the rotating washers is something to deal with but since I can measure the thickness with my vernier calibers on-board, I can determine when they are worn excessively.
This Westerbeke pump #48080 (aka Johnson) does use actual bearings as you have noted and they are all tight with no slop at all, and I have almost 1200 hours on this pump. The issue that I am upset about is the wear on the cover plate itself which is NOT supposed to require periodic replacement at $100. Speedseal insists that the wear is due to my pump housing being out-of-round, but that is not true.

As soon as I can figure out how to put my emails with Speedseal into a pdf that I can post here I will do it. There are lots more pictures and discussion in them that support the cause of the plate wear.

 

[Rich Stidger]

Here is a pdf of the email sequence that I exchanged with Alex at Speedseal. It has photos that show the clearances and my conclusion as to why the cover plate is worn. Alex at Speedseal states that the cover must be co-axial with the impeller shaft but maintains that the wear is caused by an out-of-round pump body and not the tolerance between the thumbscrews and the cover hole.

 

[Rich Stidger]

Here are scans of the brochure for the Speedseal Life and the fitting instructions. Note in the brochure that it states that the cover plate should not need replacement. Also note in the fitting instructions that there are no special alignment instructions for the cover plate.

 

[Ted]

Rich, what is your recommended engineering solution? I would think that if SpeedSeal utilized all of the mounting screws in the original pump housing and eliminated the slots in the cover, the cover would meet the same specs/tolerances as the original pump cover.

 

[Rich Stidger]

It is interesting that so far no one else has the same wear issue that I do. They are different pumps and presumably have somewhat different cover plates. I guess that measurements on those other plates for the thumbscrew size and the holes in the plate would be necessary to see if the same clearance issue is present.

 

[joker460]

I've had the speedseal on my yanmar 3GM30F(Johnson Pump) since 2011. Have 75 hours on the unit. Ran dry twice while testing my pump reversal installation. Pulled it apart each year and the impeller was perfect, disks showed no wear, cover plate in pristine condition.
Fresh water usage.

 

[Rich Stidger]

Rich, what is your recommended engineering solution? I would think that if SpeedSeal utilized all of the mounting screws in the original pump housing and eliminated the slots in the cover, the cover would meet the same specs/tolerances as the original pump cover.

Using all six of the mounting holes would not help because the problem is the slop with the existing cover holes and the diameter of the thumbscrews. If all of the holes were made smaller to eliminate the excessive slop, then it would work. But that would be true even with just the four screws used. But that would make the plate installation more difficult in the confines of the engine area. The beauty of the Speedseal is that the cover can be installed blind.

Assuming that the problem is the alignment of the cover plate so that it is in perfect co-axial alignment with the shaft, I have three possible solutions. Two of the solutions I can implement myself and the third would be possible for the manufacturer.

The first solution is to machine a sleeve that will press into the cover plate at the fixed holes and reduce the thumbscrew to hole clearance to 0.002-0.003" instead of the 0.019" that it is now.

The second solution is to machine tapered collars that would thread all the way onto the two fixed-hole thumbscrews. These screws would be tightened first and the taper would force the cover into the proper position while tightening. The screws in the slots would be tightened last.

The third solution would have to be done by Speedseal when they machine the cover plate on their CNC milling machines. A hole would be machined in the cover at the locations of the two unused holes in the pump body. A pin with the inside diameter of the threaded holes in the pump body would be pressed into the cover plate. When the cover plate is installed and before the thumbscrews are tightened, the plate would be located so that the locating pins would drop into the pump body holes assuring a precise location. The thumbscrews would then be tightened.

I am leaning toward implementing my second solution using a tapered collar at the base of the two fixed-hole thumbscrews. It would allow all of the thumbscrews to be easily inserted and threading started, yet force the plate into precise alignment. This is something that I can easily machine on my lathe. If I had a bit more time right now I would make a sketch of the tapered collar to post.

 

[Charles Erwin]

Rich

Surely an inability to index the cover/disc center to the impeller shaft center is possible - but:

If others have not had a similar history is it possible that your particular cover was 'out-of-whack' to start with?

For example, if the bore in the disc was eccentric at the beginning one cannot expect it will get better. Likewise if the center post in the plate was not round, or if that center is not dead square centered?

How about you make up our own experimental version and try it out. Probably wouldn't take more that about 5 -6 hours not including chasing material.

Charles

Edit What is the point of the center post. Why not just a well fit disc?

 

[Rich Stidger]

Rich
Surely an inability to index the cover/disc center to the impeller shaft center is possible - but:
If others have not had a similar history is it possible that your particular cover was 'out-of-whack' to start with?
For example, if the bore in the disc was eccentric at the beginning one cannot expect it will get better. Likewise if the center post in the plate was not round, or if that center is not dead square centered?
How about you make up our own experimental version and try it out. Probably wouldn't take more that about 5 -6 hours not including chasing material.
Charles
Edit What is the point of the center post. Why not just a well fit disc?

All good questions. I asked Alex at Speedseal those questions. He could not tell me the purpose of the center post in the cover. I suspect that it was put there to accommodate the PTFE and metal washers that probably could be bought with holes inexpensively. Solid washers could have been more expensive. I also thought that the cover might have been easier to machine by simply dropping in an end mill off center and rotating the cover to cut the inside out. Bottom line he did not know.
Regarding the cover not being "perfect", I discount that possibility because it was confirmed that the cover was machined by CNC - Computer Numeric Control. This process is a machine tool that is programmed and controlled by a computer to machine identical covers in a mass production environment. Typically once the piece of material is chucked up in the machine, all of the machining including holes are done before the finished part is removed. If the cover was not perfect, then none of the covers would be perfect. BTW, the new replacement cover I received looks by eye to be perfectly concentric. I suppose I could take the cover to my friend and confirm that fact using indicators on his lathe.
Likewise I believe that my pump body is also perfectly concentric with respect to the shaft, cavity, and cover mounting holes. That is another part that I would expect to be machined by CNC for mass production.

 

[Charles Erwin]

So I gather:

1. There is no possibility that the location of your pump body fastener positions are slightly off.
2. The Life post/outside cover fastener positions cannot be slightly off - never mind the post that has apparently no purpose.
3. Nobody else is having the same symptoms.

So what is it?

If it were presented to my shop the post would vanish, a new solid disc would be well fit, and then we will see what happens next.

Can say no more but you might consider whether maybe your working diagnosis might be a bit premature.

Charles

 

[Rich Stidger]

I am certainly open to ideas. I came to my conclusion after I measured the amount of wear and the slop in the hole to thumbscrew dimension. And the wear is in the direction of the plate being too far off center in the direction of the slotted fasteners.
What I can't accept is that the wear is caused by the pump cavity being out of round since I measured that roundness and found it to be within 0.002". But that is the cause that Speedseal is attesting.
What I was really trying to see is if anyone else has seen any wear like this on their covers.