Sometimes Practical Sailor is Not So Practical...

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Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I am quite sure that the test conditions will influence the outcome

I could run the same sort of test with both positive and negative leads spliced with butt connectors with a source on one end and a load on the other end and probably watch the wire go bad. But a prudent worker will not run wire through a wey area if it can be avoided and when it can not be avoided then all reasonable efforts are made to protect the connections and the cable. For this reason the power transmission companies have epoxy encapsulation kits for the connections that will be buried.
 
Aug 3, 2005
181
Morgan 33 O/I Green Cove Springs FL
Thanks Ross

As I am on my boat right now I cannot get back to Main Sail very quickly. I must look for a wifi connection. LOL. If you do my experiment you do not need to have a power supply. Just stick the bare wire in a salt solution and watch. Just the wire sans insulation in the water. It is just like your fertilizer test. Tinned wire is more corrosion resistant, that's a fact. Hell it's just solder on the individual strands. SO if you solder plain copper wire before you put it in the crimp connector, and use heat shrink with the glue inside and then possibly coat the outside with Liquid Electrical Tape. You will have no problem. The ABYC standard was set up with boat builders in mind. The builders wanted a fast easy to do dependable marine wiring. So we came up with the tinned wire and heat shrink terminals. All the other steps take time in labor to do. We all know time is money. Ross I am impressed with your insight on the subject. Like your were on the board with me. Fair Winds Cap'n Dave
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,759
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Whoa guys...

My whole point was missed! #1 I NEVER said tinned wire is the only product that should be used in the original post anywhere!! What I said was "but to diminish tinned wires value in a boat is just short sided on PS's part." Remember the article was titled "Tinned Wire Myth Busted" not "My Boat Has New But Un-Tinned Wire, Should I Replace It?" #2 My entire point was that PS did NOT qualify their comments and that ALL wire is NOT created equal. There are good wire insulations/jackets and bad. Bad ones, most likely made of vinyl and not PVC, allow oxidation through the jacket! Ross, Capn Dave and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. Though there is much evidence that supports oxidation through the insulation, on cheap wire, whether or not the ends are sealed. I am in TOTAL agreement that a GOOD QUALITY wire can be heat shrink wrapped and the wire will be fine in 20+ years! We do NOT differ on this point! During this recent wiring project I removed a total of five runs of wire from the same exact DRY conduit that was NO WHERE near the bilge. Three of these runs were original, factory installed, duplex 14ga un-tinned wire that were 29 years old. Two of them were cheap DIY installed stuff, one was brown lamp cord and one looked like speaker wire with a transparent vinyl type insulation/jacket. They were approx 15-18 years old not the 29 of the original factory wiring. The reason for this project was a WIRING FAILURE in the DIY installed stuff.. All five of these wires were in the exact same dry conduit and all used the same type of open, non-heat shrink, crimp connectors. The three 29 year old factory wire runs had black oxidation that traveled or "wicked" about 4" in from the ends. This is to be expected with open style crimps on bare copper so no surprise there at all. The other two wires, that had significantly LESS time on the boat, in the order of 10+ less years of service, were oxidized the entire length 15+/- feet and not just 4" in from the ends! These wires were the "lamp cord" and the "speaker wire" grade wires. Remember, same terminations, same locations different quality wires and wire insulation. It does not get any clearer than that to show that the jacket of the wire allowed oxidation through the membrane! It did NOT wick the 15 feet or the other three with the SAME crimps would have looked worse being 10+ years older and they did not. #3 I am actually re-using much of the original wiring if the snaking and re-routing would cause a massive tear apart of the interior or if it is of the proper gauge. I am however re-cutting and & crimping the ends with heat shrink crimp connectors. I do like tinned wire, and I do prefer it, heck I even wired my speakers with it, and find it a very good value (I have a very good distributor $43.00 for a 100' spool of 14-2 duplex) but don't find it 100% necessary with a KNOWN GOOS QUALITY un-tinned product. My problem is that the PS article, I felt, as a long time reader, leads readers to believe that sealing the ends will work on every brand and quality of un-tinned wire. The harsh reality is that this is just NOT the case with many cheaply made wires.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
MaineSail, The DIY wire that was used should have been left

to the table lamps and speakers. Old, cheak lamp cord often turns hard and brittle and the insulation breaks. I have seen speaker wire where in conductor was tinned and the other left bright to help with polarity. The text that I linked said that oxidation is not a concern with copper conductor because it is thin, tight and conductive. There are no doubt other forms of corrosion that have an adverse effect on copper but I can think of none that, in the absence of water, can occur in the normal conditions found in a boat. I think the only disagreement you and I might have here is the importance of copper oxide films. The insulation available for wire ranges from the cheapest pvc to the most sophisticated tfe jackets with silver plated wire.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,759
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
So..

Quote Ross: "The text that I linked said that oxidation is not a concern with copper conductor because it is thin, tight and conductive." So my question is, if this is true and you believe it, do you feel comfortable crimping a new connector onto an black, oxidized wire such as the one pictured above and would you do this on your boat? BTW there are many references that do think oxidation is a concern for both conductivity and fracture.. http://www.copper.org/applications/industrial/DesignGuide/oxidation04.html Quote Ross: "MaineSail, The DIY wire that was used should have been left to the table lamps and speakers." I agree and this is my WHOLE Point! As I said PS did not make clear that all un-tinned wire is not created equal! BTW my 1981 Cat 30 was wired with crappy wire similar to lamp cord from the factory and every wire was black!
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
OH NO! I want my connections to be as bright as

posible. BUT after the wire is in service I don't care about the color as long as it isn't green and furry. I have been in houses where the outlet boxes are all but rusted away but the recepticle inside is still functional. NOT SAFE but functional. With solid conductor I just scrape the black off to a bright surface before I make the connection. With stranded and 115 volt service I just put the wire nuts on and go hot. Never any problems. All of the wire on my boat is Ancor Brand tinned. ;)
 
Dec 8, 2007
478
Irwin 41 CC Ketch LaConner WA
Well Im back

and I see all the offending posts have been removed ,including my attempt to lighten everybody up and make some levity of the situation... I hope you all figured out that I WAS NOT Pete of Fred..:) and just wanted the madness to stop.. Hopefully we all can agree to disagree in the future without resorting to belittling each other...Emotions can run high and get frazzled I know.. My daughters team lost ALL their matches...so no premier league for her this year.. Oh and if you were one of the ones I used to make my point..Thats because I like you..and figured you already knew that..so would help in defusing the situation. Scott
 
S

Scott

Is that a pencil in your pocket?

Taking a look at the photo posted by M.S. I'm beginning to see why he gets so excited about wiring! ;)
 
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