Sometimes Practical Sailor is Not So Practical...

[Maine Sail]

Hi All,Just yesterday it was like Christmas. I went to the mailbox and both Professional Boat Builder and Practical Sailor were in there! Were do I read first....Anyway to my point. After reading PS cover to cover I flip the back cover and there in bold print I see the headline "Tinned Wire Myth Busted". Now I know as well as anyone that the ABYC does not specify the use of tinned wire, heck I own a copy of ABYC E-11, but to totally diminish tinned wires value in a boat is just plain foolish and short sided on PS's part.Sure, there were many truthful points made but the entire gist of the article was to portray un-tinned wire as suitable for marine use because it "has been used for years" and "provides more-than-adequate service life", which they never defined, of course they did end that sentence with "in most cases" to cover their butts.... Point #1Quote PS:"By using heat-shrink crimp terminals or adhesive-lined heat-shrink tubing on conventional crimp connectors, you can effectively seal the ends of all the wire on your boat."While I totally agree with PS's points about using heat shrink crimp terminals, I disagree that using an adhesive lined heat shrink over a NON heat shrink "conventional" crimp connection is a suitable alternative to an actual heat shrink connector. In my experience, it is VERY, VERY difficult to find a piece of adhesive lined heat shrink that will: 1) Fit over the existing nylon insulation on the non-heat shrink connector as this is a rather LARGE diameter and becomes more than a 3:1 shrink 2) Shrinks enough, from the diameter needed to fit over the insulated crimp connector, to make a proper seal around the wires OD and to properly seal the terminal end. Can it be done? Sure, but you will WASTE many pieces of expensive adhesive lined heat shrink, and crimp connectors, in the process of attempting a seal, and failing to make a solid seal. It is much easier, repeatable and reliable to just use crimp terminals designed and sold with the heat shrink built in to begin with.Point #2Quote PS:"Without exposure to moisture, or salt air, the un-tinned wire will last as long as the tinned"I can't even begin to agree with any part of this statement without them giving further clarification. This statement as written is totally and 100% misleading! Why? First off all wire jacketing is NOT the same. Many boat builders used cheaply jacketed wire including but not limited to "lamp cord". The photo bellow was taken just last night! I went to re-wire my shower sump and found some older DIY wiring that did not meet my standards. Long story short, I am now doing a major portion of my re-wire, that I had planned for this winter, now. This photo PROVES the PS statement above is MISLEADING to say the least. I cut this piece of wire from the CENTER of a 15 foot run. The wire had been encased inside a glassed in PVC conduit that was NOT in the bilge but rather half way up the top sides and out of direct contact with any water or bilge moisture. As you can clearly see from the photo this wire is severely oxidized and has turned black in the MIDDLE, or about 7 feet in from the end, of the wire! This is ONLY due to one thing, moisture, oxygen & humidity transmittance through the JACKET of the wire..!Here's another misleading PS quote: "You'll need to strip back the wiring until you find clean, pink copper. Usually this requires stripping back no more than an inch or so if insulation." LOOK AT THE PICTURE is all I can say...You can't always believe what you read just because you read it in PS. Sometimes these authors, like the Don Casey comments yesterday, don't fully investigate their own statements..Cheaply jacketd wire will oxidize and corrode THROUGH THE JACKET and MANY builders used cheap wire before the ABYC issued jacket ratings...! Even these UL/ABYC jacket ratings don't prevent and eliminate internal oxidation of the copper in all cases. I don't have a good answer of which jackets or insulation materials or ratings WILL 100% prevent oxidation through the jacket but I do know that many will as I have seen this numerous times on numerous re-wires. Tinned wire is a safe bet unless you know for a fact the jacket or insulation will 100% prevent internal oxidation through the jacket of the wire.So yes even PS needs to do a BETTER more thorough job with their reporting and investigating...!P.S. The factory wiring, not the DIY wiring, on my 29 year old Canadian Sailcraft is a bare copper duplex jacketed wire and is nice, clean and pink copper showing no oxidation. The jacket on this FACTORY wiring, was, and is a top quality bare copper duplex wire that has very good insulation and jacket. What PS said CAN be true but they need to be very careful painting with a broad brush. A case in point would be factory wiring on my old Catalina 30 from the early 80's. This wire was totally oxidized throughout the entire boat! As I stated not all wire is created equal!

 

[Rick Sylvester]

As the owner of a boat built

with untinned wire from the factory I feel qualified to say that PS royally screwed the pooch on that one. While there might be the tiniest chance that their point MIGHT be valid in a purely theoretical sense, anyone who has lived with untinned wire in a marine environment in the real world knows that it's just so much crap. They ought to be severely spanked for publishing that.Obviously, their recommendation works just fine until the damage is done. They'd never know until it's too late.Perhaps we should ask their editor how he'd feel about trusting his bilge pump to old untinned wire installed years ago on a dark stormy night many miles from land in a boat taking on water.No thanks.

 

[Warren Milberg]

Is PS 'Practical'

Over the years, I've raised a number of concerns with 'Practical Sailor' and found them receptive to other opinions, some of which they have published in later editions. I suggest you send this item to Darrell Nicholson (practicalsailor@belvoirpubs.com) and see how he/they react or respond.As an interesting aside, my first issues with PS were over two items they recommended, at either ends of the cost spectrum, that I thought were very impractical. One was a pair of very high end image stabilized binoculars that cost more than the whole boat I happened to own at the time. Not very 'practical' IMHO. The second item was their recommendation of a specific type of masking tape that could only be used for masking the edges of cabin top hand rails prior to refinishing them. I had been, and continue to use, regular old blue masking tape for every masking chore on my boat, from masking the waterline to masking the handrails. This is an inexpensive product that works just fine.

 

[Rick D]

Grain of Salt

Agree 100%. PS is a great guide and reference. However, a lot more experience than the PS editor is old long ago proved only tinned wire belongs on a boat. For SoCal sailors, for example, their bottom paint experience doesn't apply. They are very good but their findings and biases need intelligent thought and to be buffered by local practice. Rick D.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

opinions are just that

While you may disagree with someone's opinion, be it Practical Sailor or some other author, the truth usually lies somewhere in between. I still maintain that any good quality, properly insulated and properly sealed wire is more than adequate. The problem is usally that some simply either don't know or can't properly seal the wire ends to preclude moisture penetration which tinned wire is somehow supposed to compensate. I think that is PS's point.

 

[Ross]

I think that untinned wire with properly made connections

will carry the designed current load for as long as tinned wire. BUT if ever the need arises to change that wiring system the untinned wire will not be reusable. Domestic wiring for wet locations is made with very different jacketing than is romex. Romex when used outside for post lights develops an oxide film on the wire after a few years. In areas that I didn't use heat shrink on the terminals I used 3M Scotch liquid electric tape. That stuff does a very good job from the results of the testing I have done.

 

[Maine Sail]

Don...

Quote Don: "While you may disagree with someone's opinion"Unfortunately Don this was not presented as "opinion" and was presented as FACT as in: PS QUOTE: "Without exposure to moisture, or salt air, the un-tinned wire will last as long as the tinned"I am not disagreeing with an "opinion" here I am merely SHOWING, with EVIDENCE that their statements presented as FACT are not FACT at all in each and every case or instance. I NEVER Stated that ALL un-tinned wire jackets are moisture permeable just that some are as in my "lamp cord" comment. How would you know, if it is permeable or not, without cutting the middle of the wire?Quote Don: "The problem is usally that some simply either don't know or can't properly seal the wire ends"With all due respect you clearly did not read that this wire was oxidized 7 feet from the end in a " dry" area of the boat. The bare copper oxidized because the JACKET or INSULATION failed to protect the bare copper from oxygen and humidity or moisture. This wire did NOT oxidize from bare exposed ends as this was a very tightly taped twisted wire & soldered connection (poorly and dangerously executed and why it failed to begin with). The wire under the electrical tape, at the ends, actually looked better than the wire under jacket alone... My whole point is that no matter how you seal the ends of SOME bare copper wire it will STILL oxidize due to a crappy insulation or jacket!!

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I agree ross

The jacket and dielectric if there is one are far more critical characteristics than whether the wire is tinned.In addition to the 3M liquid rubber tape, I've found that coax seal is extremely effective and long-lived (for over 30 years).In using it both inside and outside exposed directly to the ambient conditions, I've never experienced any degredation of the cables from moisture.If water wicks into the jacket, it really makes no difference whether the wire is tinned or not - you have a bigger problem.

 

[Alan]

THANK YOU! Maine Sail

I used to be an avid reader and admirer of PS. This was during the reign of Dan Spurr as editor. More than one time I was able to call and speak to Dan on something in one of the issues. However, since PS has put on the glitz they also have lowered their standards and made what I consider some very questionable "judgment" calls. It got to the point that I finally asked myself....if they are making bad calls on issues, how do I know when to believe their judgment and when not to? A short while later when my subscription ran out I decided to cancel my renewal.In fairness, anyone is entitled to a bad call but with the weight of clout that PS carries they need to make a better effort to verify their claims.

 

[Maine Sail]

Personally..

I would like to see PS go back to FEWER articles per issue that are MUCH more in-depth. I walk away from most every article asking why did they not look at this or that.. Since the move to color they really have become less and less thorough and in-depth and more of a Consumer Reports type of magazine. They really just skim the topics these days!!For instance read page 20 of this months issue: "Power Tools For Restoring Gelcoat"All I can say is... "what?"

 

[GuyT]

Probably not osmosis thru wire

The fact that one end of the wire may have been exposed to moisture(possibly submerged) in a wet sump was the start of the corrosion.Corrosion transmits or migrates on bare copper surfaces quite efficienty because of the same reason it is used in the first place - lots of free electrons in copper.I dont agree with your osmosis theory - I think that it really was transmission or migration of corrosion from the source.

 

[Landsend]

Just like everything else...I don't believe in everything

Practical Sailor says...however, I still find them a useful source of information that needs to be digested with some hands on knowledge. Over time we all have items that have gained favor with us, be it the type of anchor we think is right, or the type of bottom paint we apply. This subjectivity isn't only in boating but extends to the car we drive, the food we eat and the type of stereo we listen to.Years ago Stereo Review magazine suggested that regular heavy duty lamp cord proved no better that Monster Cable in both hearing and lab tests. This caused quite an uproar in the audiophile community.Just do what seem right for you're individual lifestyle. Sometimes I use tinned wire and sometimes I don't.I do however, prefer the tinned in the wet areas.

 

[Tom S]

Here is a question

Undoubtably un-tinned copper wire will oxidize, even in the middle of a 15 foot long wire. The question is - Is oxidation on the outside layer of copper on the wire itself a problem to working wire on a boat. Maybe yes, maybe no. I think the answer lies in, "it depends where the oxidation is in relations to the connections"Now I know Maine Sail had voltage loss readings between the two ends of that wire, but where & how where the measurements taken ? How much current was running through those wires when the reading was done ? (Anyone that knows ohms law knows extremely high current and/or higher than normal resistance in the wire or connectors causes voltage loss.) How was the Volt meter attached to the wire? Was there any connectors involved ? Did Maine Sail fully scrap off the oxidation when connecting the Voltmeter. Was the resistance in the connections of Volmeter attachments? How does Maine Sail know where the exact increased resistance points are in his wire? Is he absolutely sure that it was equally distributed along the wires or were there hisgh resistance pointsFrom what I know the oxidation on the outer layer of copper wire will have little effect on the resistance of DC current in a wire, not enough to add the resistance of over 0.5 volts like Maine Sail experienced. (Just for the record I have a bit of background in this area I am an EE from U of New Hampshire) It is my experience that the added resistance is almost always due to the connections and THAT is where my problem with un-tinned wire comes into play. Now that is not to say that in some extreem conditions severe corrosion of the wire can't occur, it can I understand where Maine Sail is coming from and I don't think I would cheap out on wire and not get untinned wire, but its not from oxidation in the middle of a wire run. The way I see it, it is plain and simple. It is nearly impossible to get a good 'low loss' connection to a bare untinned wire. Scraping the wire adequately to get bare copper is difficult at best without nicking the wire. Even with the best crimper Maine Sail or anyone can find to crush the wire you still have introduced a resistive oxidation connection layer of some sort in the connection. Not to mention what happens over time at that untinned connectionThat is where I see the problem lies. So in some respects PS wasn't totally incorrect, its just that their assumptions are unrealistic in a Marine environment and making good near zero loss connections and especially for 95% of Boating DIYers.

 

[Don12480]

Is soldering a better method

I have been told that if you solder all your connections and tape them they will last forever - what is the concensus on soldering?Thanks Don

 

[Maine Sail]

Guy...

Quote: "I dont agree with your osmosis theory - I think that it really was transmission or migration of corrosion from the source."Believe what you want. I can't say it any clearer. NEITHER END OF THIS WIRE WAS IN ANY CONTACT WITH WATER! It was in a conduit mounted bellow the cove stripe (not the boot stripe) on the inside of the hull and up high. One end of the wire terminated at the panel, which is totally dry and shows no signs of ever being wet or corrosion, and the other end terminated 6" bellow the conduit in a twisted, soldered and taped failed connection (solder joint broke) with copious amounts of electrical tape sealing it. If your theory is to stand up please explain how my 29 year old bare copper factory duplex wiring, that was in the same conduit, using the same crimp terminals at the panel end, is still pink at 4" in (not the 1" PS states BTW) and the cheap DIY added wire is oxidized it's entire 15 foot length? It's the jacket!P.S. Tom I removed the voltage drop shortly after I posted it because I realized I never cleaned the wire before measuring. Though it's a good case for why not to use oxidized wire. I was in a rush last night trying to get this wiring done before the weekend and realized my mistake as I proof read so I pulled it because it was NOT accurate as you pointed out!

 

[NautiDuck]

Nobody knows it all

Not PS, not Don Casey, not anyone on this forum. Do your research, look at your own circumstances and do what you think is right.

 

[Maine Sail]

Right!!

Quote: " Not PS, not Don Casey, not anyone on this forum. Do your research, look at your own circumstances and do what you think is right."Amen!! Could not have said it better my self! Never take one person or source as 100% credible without first analyzing ALL the data... PS is generally a VERY GOOD source but they do sometimes miss the mark..

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

another debatable issue

" I have been told that if you solder all your connections and tape them they will last forever - what is the concensus on soldering?"This too has been debated not only here but in numerous articles. One perspective is that most people do not know how to properly solder a good lasting connection and mechanically support and insulate it to preclude a brittle break - all valid points. The converse method of mechnaically crimping can be described similarly - that many don't know how to do it properly, that it too is a weak link and point of moisture penetration regardless of how well it is heat-shrinked.Regardless of which view you ascribe to, the key element is doing it properly so as to ensure a good mechanical as well as electrically low-loss connection unable to wick moisture which is the killer of either method.The person who made the declarative statement you quoted above, as to which is best, is expressing opinion, not fact. Neither lasts "forever".

 

[GuyT]

Duplex wiring is solid conductor

not multi strand.Multi strand wire jackets do not protect from wicking and corrosion migration as well as solid wire because there are many conductors on the inside and that leaves alot of unprotected wires. Solid wire has one insulator which coats the entire surface - much harder to wick and transmit when there is a tight jacket around it.I do agree that your DIY wire was not suited for the application - I would never use anything less than thhn or mtw style hook up wire.Quality of wire is extreemly important. But for an insulator to be so porous that it corrodes wire from osmosis means that it should have never been used in the first place and would be more suited on Chinese Christmas lights.

 

[Maine Sail]

GuyT

I use the term duplex because that's what the industry refers to it as. Don't take my word for it here's a link: