Solar panel question/Recommendations

[Captain Larry-DH]

@artleyt115 you’re getting good advice above and you're on the right track by setting up a power budget.Adding a battery monitor will help greatly when you’re using the system, so you can understand how it compares with your real world experience. if you’re in a northern latitude you should figure a solar panel will produce a fraction of the rated peak output. Also, it was mentioned above that lead acid batteries can only be used for about 50% of rated amp hours, but it’s really less than that because the charge absorption rate above 80% slows considerably, especially flooded lead acid cells (FLA). AGM batteries charge much more efficiently, but they’re less tolerant of abuse, more expensive, and need to be charged more carefully.
PS - I replaced a Victron SCC 010020110 charge controller with an upgraded model. I offer it free to you, or to anyone else who wants it (for the price of postage). It works fine, but it’s a budget PWM model. if you’re not budget conscious i suggest instead to buy an MPPT controller model. MPPT is more efficient.

 

[artleyt115]

@artleyt115 you’re getting good advice above and you're on the right track by setting up a power budget.Adding a battery monitor will help greatly when you’re using the system, so you can understand how it compares with your real world experience. if you’re in a northern latitude you should figure a solar panel will produce a fraction of the rated peak output. Also, it was mentioned above that lead acid batteries can only be used for about 50% of rated amp hours, but it’s really less than that because the charge absorption rate above 80% slows considerably, especially flooded lead acid cells (FLA). AGM batteries charge much more efficiently, but they’re less tolerant of abuse, more expensive, and need to be charged more carefully.
PS - I replaced a Victron SCC 010020110 charge controller with an upgraded model. I offer it free to you, or to anyone else who wants it (for the price of postage). It works fine, but it’s a budget PWM model. if you’re not budget conscious i suggest instead to buy an MPPT controller model. MPPT is more efficient.

Gotcha, I do currently have a battery monitor which definitely helps out. I don't currently have a charge controller but I was considering getting one in a kit with the solar panels. I do appreciate the offer but currently we're thinking about getting one with Bluetooth controls/monitoring. Though I do agree all the advice from this form has been super helpful!

 

[TheBigDeal]

I'm confused by the 87w/12w rating on your fridge. You listed 288.0 WH, which is 12w * 24H. 12 watts seems too low. Let's assume 30w on average.

Your inverter will draw power, even though you have N/A listed. A Victron Multiplus 2000 will draw anywhere from 3-9 watts depending on how search mode is configured. Let's assume 6 watts draw, 24 hours per day.

Your depth meter is only used when sailing, not 24 hours. Call it 6 hours.

Using your figures in addition to the assumptions above, I get a total of 3196.2 watts per day. A 200w panel will contribute around 800 watts per day. Figure in losses for voltage drop, battery efficiency and operating with an 80% depth of discharge, you'll need 227 AH of storage or 3 100AH batteries for 1 day away from shore power. Limit the PS4 to a couple of hours per day and you can eliminate 1 battery. But it might cause a mutiny.

The numbers seem high but math is math.

Hey, I am Artley's friend and co owner of the boat.

To echo Artley; How much loss are you calculating? Understandable with the efficiency drop with the solar panels, but from what we calculated we get around 4 days of power on a full battery charge. Just curious what sort of losses you have and a bit more of an explanation.

I can also confirm, limiting the PS4 will cause a mutiny. However, In reality though it is really there for media playing so I don't think the power draw will be as high as playing game which will be much more rare.

Thank you for your breakdown of our situation, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[mermike]

I modified your data slightly, but the load is still more than 200 AH per day. I attached the spreadsheet to show the calculations. Change the extension on the attachment from .txt to .xlsx and it should open in Excel. Edit: there are no adjustments for solar harvest, voltage drop, battery age, depth of discharge or operating temperature. The table below is consumption only.

Equiment Name	Qty	Watts	Using Hr/Day	Watt/Hours	Amp/Hours @12V
Water Pump	1	30.0	0.5	15.0	1.3
Fish Finder	1	16.3	6.0	97.8	8.2
Stereo	1	22.0	12.0	264.0	22.0
VHF Radio Transmit	1	25.0	0.1	2.5	0.2
VHF Radio Receive	1	5.0	23.9	119.5	10.0
Battery monitor	1	0.2	24.0	4.3	0.4
2000w Inverter	1	6.0	24.0	144.0	12.0
LED light x3	1	3.0	6.0	18.0	1.5
Reg Bulb	1	10.0	6.0	60.0	5.0
Monitor	1	25.0	6.0	150.0	12.5
PS4	1	137.0	6.0	822.0	68.5
Depth meter	1	15.0	6.0	90.0	7.5
Fuel pump	1	12.0	0.1	1.2	0.1
Fuel gauge	1	3.0	24.0	72.0	6.0
Switch and Charger	1	18.0	24.0	432.0	36.0
Fridge	1	12.0	24.0	288.0	24.0
			Total Load/Day:	2,580.3	215.0

 

[Leeward Rail]

If you have a bimini, you might consider putting one similar to this over the top.

Food for thought. If you go with flexible panels, make sure they are well secured.
2 people in our marina had their flexible panels destroyed by wind. They were secured with the included mounting points.
I have seen photos of some installed in a pocket with a plastic window, but i would assume that would decrease efficiency.

They both switched to rigid ones mounted on the Bimini.

In reality though it is really there for media playing

A tablet or laptop would make more sense. Especially on a 26ft boat.

Last time I looked, the tablet was relatively much lower consumption than a laptop.

If it was an older iPad, you could also use it for navigation and weather software in a waterproof case.

Our boat came with a typical automotive style stereo, speakers in the cabin, and additionally in the cockpit for annoying everyone in the anchorage.

I am debating replacing it with a small Bluetooth system, and filling the cockpit speaker holes with access covers. That way we can use the tablet as a media player and the car stereo can be eliminated.

Less power consumption and less clutter.

 

[jssailem]

I am confused... Although that can be easy with this stuff.

listed in the power budget

2000w Inverter

1

6.0

24.0

144.0

12.0

It is identified as a "6" watt consumption item for 24 hours. Yet it is a 2000W converter. Are you saying the only item too be using the AC power from this inverter is a 6 watt per hour AC powered unit?

My wife's hair dryer uses 1500 watts and it takes 15 or so minutes to get the results. In that short time the inverter would consume 375 watts. Then there is the Keurig coffee maker, the microwave, perhaps a toaster oven all getting power from the inverter... Where is all that power consumption accounted for.

Additionally there is the "Conversion" factor as inverters are not pure transformers of DC to AC. There is some loss in the process.

This query is about solar panels, but it has to address the storage of the panel power. The storage size needs to address the power to be used. Inadequate storage means power may not be there when desired.

 

[mermike]

I am confused... Although that can be easy with this stuff.

listed in the power budget

2000w Inverter

1

6.0

24.0

144.0

12.0

It is identified as a "6" watt consumption item for 24 hours. Yet it is a 2000W converter. Are you saying the only item too be using the AC power from this inverter is a 6 watt per hour AC powered unit?

My wife's hair dryer uses 1500 watts and it takes 15 or so minutes to get the results. In that short time the inverter would consume 375 watts. Then there is the Keurig coffee maker, the microwave, perhaps a toaster oven all getting power from the inverter... Where is all that power consumption accounted for.

Additionally there is the "Conversion" factor as inverters are not pure transformers of DC to AC. There is some loss in the process.

This query is about solar panels, but it has to address the storage of the panel power. The storage size needs to address the power to be used. Inadequate storage means power may not be there when desired.

6 watts is the idle load of the inverter. It's a total WAG, as the inverter specs weren't included. The AC load of the PS4 is listed separately, and is included in the total consumption, as would any other AC load like a hair dryer.

If I was doing a complete analysis, inverter efficiency would be factored into the inverter size. It applies to AC loads only.

There are other items not included in the original list like nav lights or an anchor light. I assume there's no chart plotter. There's no bilge pump, or cell phone/laptop charging listed either.

That said, Artley has done his homework and collected the information that he needs to begin his assessment. Now it's a question of refinement. So many people just ask, "How many batteries do I need?" Ugh. It's both satisfying and interesting to participate with someone who has put the work in. Well done, sir.

 

[jssailem]

I agree Mike. Why when I saw the lack of AC load in the calculations I mentioned it. It is not unusual to see 100AHr's consumption with out all the toys (PS4 even though it is used to screen of entertainment in the budget). My reaction that the mentioned 100 Ahr battery could serve the demand made me chuckle. I'm stingy on power consumption and I have 3 135Ahr batteries on board plus a separate starter battery.

It is refreshing that the OP is going through the process of discovery and not just guessing. They will be better off in their future sailing adventures for it.

 

[TheBigDeal]

A tablet or laptop would make more sense. Especially on a 26ft boat.

Last time I looked, the tablet was relatively much lower consumption than a laptop.

If it was an older iPad, you could also use it for navigation and weather software in a waterproof case.

Our boat came with a typical automotive style stereo, speakers in the cabin, and additionally in the cockpit for annoying everyone in the anchorage.

I am debating replacing it with a small Bluetooth system, and filling the cockpit speaker holes with access covers. That way we can use the tablet as a media player and the car stereo can be eliminated.

Less power consumption and less clutter.

A Tablet or laptop would both be much lower power consumption on average, tablets are usually like 25w or something like that, while most laptops are 65w to 90w which is much better than the PS4. However with the lack of internet all entertainment will have to be local (for now at least, maybe satellite internet in the future but that seems pretty expensive) which is why we chose a PS4 for Games and DVD's and such. Unfortunately a tablet won't fit the bill to play media like that though using it for navigation and stuff may not be a terrible idea, our fish finder does most of that anyways though.
I am planning to eventually replace it and install a custom small form factor desktop inside the boat at some point, I already have an extra Micro-ATX motherboard lying around, though as far as power consumption this will probably be more power rather than less. Anyways this idea probably won't be done for a year or two as it is a very low priority and the PS4 works fine for now.

We have a car stereo and similar speaker setups, I am a bit worried of the sound traveling but I won't really know until we get the boat on the water and see how quiet it can get and still be audible for the interior of the boat. Worst case we can just limit or eliminate usage at anchorages and only really use it during travel.

 

[artleyt115]

Thank you both @mermike and @jssailem, since my previous post on a similar topic I took everyone's advice to draw out a power plan, also thank you for redoing my sheet (though I miss the Comic sans font ) as for the nav and anchor lights you're right I did not include them (yet) only reason being is I don't know how much they consume yet. I have the monitor so I can watch the draw next time I'm, in the boat though I am going on a limb and I think each light will be similar to the regular bulb we have in the boat ( I may consider replacing them with LEDs in the future) @jssailem if you dont mind me asking how long does your setup last without shore power?

Food for thought. If you go with flexible panels, make sure they are well secured.
2 people in our marina had their flexible panels destroyed by wind. They were secured with the included mounting points.
I have seen photos of some installed in a pocket with a plastic window, but i would assume that would decrease efficiency.

They both switched to rigid ones mounted on the Bimini.

Leeward how did they attach them to the top? I was looking into those types of panels and considered them, I would prefer to go with them (Not only because they're cheaper) but they're also more efficient

again I would like to say thank you to everyone! I really appreciate all the advice and considerations I've gotten from this post. It have been super helpful

 

[jssailem]

Check out this site for ideas.

SeaBits

Internet connectivity on boats, marine electronics and electrical systems, and other tech-focused topics for mariners and boat lovers.

seabits.com

Consider a Raspberry PI system.

NMEA 2000 powered Raspberry Pi

Easy to install Raspberry Pi computer that gets its power from the NMEA 2000 bus. Great for SignalK, OpenCPN, and OpenPlotter.

seabits.com

 

[TheBigDeal]

Check out this site for ideas.

SeaBits

Internet connectivity on boats, marine electronics and electrical systems, and other tech-focused topics for mariners and boat lovers.

seabits.com

Consider a Raspberry PI system.

NMEA 2000 powered Raspberry Pi

Easy to install Raspberry Pi computer that gets its power from the NMEA 2000 bus. Great for SignalK, OpenCPN, and OpenPlotter.

seabits.com

I never considered a Pi for that. That's actually a really great idea, I even have one lying around too. I'll have to delve deeper into the internet stuff later on, but from a quick look it seems like some cool info. Thank you!

 

[jssailem]

Conservatively, I can go about 48-72 hours at anchor before recharging. I plan for consuming about 70 amp hours a day. I have converted all of my lights to LED's and choose systems (i.e. Diesel Heater, Refrig, Autopilot etc) based on power consumption. I have a 105 Amp alternator on the diesel engine. When I move from anchorage and have to use the auxiliary it supplies the needed replacement energy to my battery bank. When I spend a night in a marina, I recharge the battery bank. I will be adding Solar this year to accommodate planned multi-week cruising. As yet not sure about the location of panels on the boat.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I will be adding Solar this year to accommodate planned multi-week cruising. As yet not sure about the location of panels on the boat.

What's your assessment for the solar panels? The previous owner had flexible panels on our boat. He was on a mooring in Massachusetts so he absolutely needed solar to keep batts topped off. His exposure definitely had serious wind. I took them off because they were very oxidized, I didn't want the weight on the bimini fabric and I don't have a need for solar, currently. In the back of my mind, I always have a plan to re-install solar when my horizons expand. I lean towards flexible panels mostly because I hate the clunky look of rigid panels. The installation for flexible panels was/is sleek and unobtrusive.

Basically, the panels were secured to the bimini fabric with velcro strips around the perimeter of the panel backs. To keep wind from getting under the panels, he had flaps sewn into the bimini to surround each panel with velcro strips to secure just around the edges of the top-side of the panels. The velcro strips are all in bad shape and will need to be replaced. But he had them secured for 20 years in New England weather with no incidents, so it seemed to work!

 

[artleyt115]

Hi Scott! Long time no sea (haha see what I did there?) Thank you for the insight on those panels. I'm on the fence about which ones we'll go with but I think I am going to grab the Bimini top for the old O'day first before making that decision.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Leeward how did they attach them to the top? I was looking into those types of panels and considered them, I would prefer to go with them (Not only because they're cheaper) but they're also more efficient

The rigid ones ?

With a stainless bar mounted on the Bimini vertical portion of the tubing on either side.

The panels sit above the cloth on their own crossbar. If you have cloth, it only requires it to have some openings that fit tight around where the solar panel mount tubing exits on either side.

I plan on doing the same but likely eliminating the cloth at least for the foreseeable future.

I have no interest in a full cover with sides etc., and the rigid solar panels would already block sun and rain for rear portion of the cockpit.

That said I will likely build the new tubing so that a cloth cover can be installed in the future if wanted.

Keep in mind that backstay location will possibly alter where your panel can go above the cockpit. Regardless of type.

In our case, the 2 panels with go either side of the backstay.

Cable access and servicing is also a design consideration.

Stand in the cockpit with a friend and visualize seeing mainsail trim from the helm, ease of access, cable routing etc.
Take a tape measure.

Edit: another mount option for rigid panels is on modified lifelines. (Changed to tubing for that area). Make them so they can swing up and down. May only work for larger boats. Another dock neighbour has that setup on his CnC34.

 

[BigEasy]

. I will be adding Solar this year to accommodate planned multi-week cruising.

Defender has a 200 watt (2 flexible panels) on sale for $811, including panels, wiring, connectors, & controller. Not sure of the manufacturer & quality.

 

[Tin Kicker]

$811?
If you go flexible you can pay well under $300 for the panels, controller, and monitor by buying them off Amazon. The question is whether you need to use a MPPT controller rather than PWM? The MPPT is more efficient but if the boat sits during the week you may not need to be more efficient. Same with buying a basic monitor versus one with more automated features.

Flexible panels are meant to be able to follow a non-flat contour, they are NOT meant to continuously flex. If mounted to the fabric of a bimini and the fabric is not absolutely taut, flexible panels can be killed in a season.

 

[BigEasy]

$811?
If you go flexible you can pay well under $300 for the panels, controller, and monitor by buying them off Amazon.

The question is what degree of quality are you going to get from a $300 kit from Amazon. Let's face it, superior quality panels, such as Solbian, are going to set you back over $500 - 1000 per panel. Goes back to the time proven adage, "you get what you pay for."

 

[Tin Kicker]

I paid a lot of attention to the reviews and didn't buy the cheapest or the most expensive. In car equivalents, rather than paying for a Mercedes, I planned and paid for a Toyota.

Setting up the system in my van, I planned on it lasting at least 5 years and I'm now almost 3 into it without an issue ever. It's basic, it works, and there's no reason to believe it won't just keep going. What is now going into the boat is very similar.

So yes, I got what I (researched and) paid for. It works.