Solar or generator?

Jul 27, 2011
5,007
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Still working on this and I appreciate all the input. I suspect I will end up with both: smaller panel that is not as big and ugly and a Honda generator to have all option available...
bob
You may not have the full picture here. The Honda generator will not charge up your batteries much faster (if at all) than your altenator would, which means that you'll end up having to run it often and you must also carry gasoline. So, there's almost no advantage to that expense unless you need to run AC appliances. But even then, I have often read here in this SBO forum how the boat electrical guys don't believe that they are safe to have aboard. They cannot be grounded properly, as I recall, and present a risk of CO poisoning, etc., plus they make a disagreeable noise in the pristine anchorages, even the "quiet" ones. You received the proper recommendation IMHO: upgrade your batteries and altenator; plus get an 85W to maybe 100W solar panel for extra support, or put a drain in your ice box so the water can be pumped out. Setting up a Honda 2000 to run on the foredeck and annoy your anchorage neighbors is the VERY LAST thing you should consider!:frown:
 
Last edited:
Feb 26, 2004
22,780
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Setting up a Honda 2000 on the foredeck to annoy your anchorage neighbors is the VERY LAST thing you should consider!:frown:
BINGO. :plus::banghead::yikes::cowbell:

The link I provided in my last post explains how to size the system. You first need, require, demand an ENERGY BUDGET to even begin to size the solar system.

You also need to know how you will use your boat. If you are only a weekend warrior your sizing is different than if you are a oftentimes anchor out.

Read up, it never hurts. :)
 
May 16, 2007
1,509
Boatless ! 26 Ottawa, Ontario
Still working on this and I appreciate all the input. I suspect I will end up with both: smaller panel that is not as big and ugly and a Honda generator to have all option available...
bob
Bob, all good points to consider. I think the Honda, solar panel combo is a good one, it offers lots of options. A good battery charger is a must with the Honda available. I know, nothing like a boat to keep the money flowing out of your pocket !

Off topic, I notice you are in St Simons. We had a friend that kept her boat there for a few years. We stopped by for a few days to visit her and were very impressed, you have a great place to sail.
Bob
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,527
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
A word from the rest of us:

Generators are loud and smelly, especially for the boat moored/anchored behind you.

Similar for charging on the engine, by the way. At the big mooring field at Put-in-Bay, for example, the stern of the boat moored upwind if us is only 30 to 50 feet away from the hatch in our v-berth where we sleep.
 
May 16, 2007
1,509
Boatless ! 26 Ottawa, Ontario
This is just my experiences, depending on where you sail yours may be very different. The way to generate electricity today is with solar. If you can't do that a small Honda is worth considering depending on where you sail. A bit of consideration for those around you will create a good experience for everyone.

It is true generators can be loud and smelly, they can also be quiet and not smelly.

The Honda EU2000 is quiet (55 to 59 dBa) and being gasoline is not smelly.

We have had loud smelly generators used in front of us at night and sure didn't like it either. I have taken the dinghy over to ask them to turn it off, which they did.

I would say we have had a lot more bother with loud music, drinking and yelling than from generators. Not to say there were never any loud generators, just did not happen too many times and they were not a little Honda.

At 59 dBa the Honda is quieter than two people having a conversation in the cockpit. I own a Honda generator but don't use it on our boat, so I'm quite familiar with them. In fact where we spend our winters probably half the boats in an anchorage will be using Honda generators. Usually they get run for an hour in the morning and another hour later in the day. It is often hard to tell they are running. All the charter boats have to run their diesel engine for an hour in the morning and an hour at night, with more smell and noise than a Honda.

Any engine can put CO into a boat cabin, we have 3 CO detectors in our 35 ft boat, it came that way from the factory, any vessel with an internal combustion engine should have them. If CO from generators were killing people the issue would be well known throughout the Caribbean. I can't recall ever hearing of that happening. Carrying gasoline for a dinghy outboard is no more hazardous than carrying it for a Honda generator or carrying propane for our stove and BBQ.

The electrical safety solution for the EU2000 is well documented on the web and can easily be found with Google.

We live on our boat in the winter, last season from Jan until mid-May.. We have a 3.5 KW diesel generator on our boat. I ran it for a 30 minute test when we launched the boat in Jan. and another 30 minutes before we hauled to flush it with Saltaway. Otherwise we lived on our solar panel and the motoring we did from place to place. So I'm no big fan of generators and try to avoid it if possible. If I had to run it I would be considerate of those around me. When we used our Honda on our previous boat I used to dinghy by our neighbors vessels and ask it was bother. They were all surprised it was running. For many sailors a Honda generator is part of life, on your boat or other vessels in the anchorage. Maybe people are more considerate in the Bahamas and Caribbean ?
Bob
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,007
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
At 59 dBa the Honda is quieter than two people having a conversation in the cockpit. I own a Honda generator but don't use it on our boat, so I'm quite familiar with them. In fact where we spend our winters probably half the boats in an anchorage will be using Honda generators. Usually they get run for an hour in the morning and another hour later in the day. It is often hard to tell they are running. All the charter boats have to run their diesel engine for an hour in the morning and an hour at night, with more smell and noise than a Honda.

Any engine can put CO into a boat cabin, we have 3 CO detectors in our 35 ft boat, it came that way from the factory, any vessel with an internal combustion engine should have them. If CO from generators were killing people the issue would be well known throughout the Caribbean. I can't recall ever hearing of that happening. Carrying gasoline for a dinghy outboard is no more hazardous than carrying it for a Honda generator or carrying propane for our stove and BBQ.

The electrical safety solution for the EU2000 is well documented on the web and can easily be found with Google.
I'm sure the widespread use of Honda generators aboard sailboats is here to stay; no amount of "rational" objection will ever change that. But just to go a bit further. Factory specifications of the db level are tantamount to the same kind of "perfect world" specification as for a bilge pump. What is it where you're planning on using it? One test found the measured db level @ 20 ft around 13% higher than specs dependent on which direction the exhaust was facing. If I'm in front of, or behind, a boat with an H2000 on the foredeck or swim step, I can almost assure you that the noisiest side (ca. 68 db) will be facing me, not him; and that the CO-filled exhaust will be coming my way as well. Not only that, the sound will be travelling over water, so you can expect some additional amplification. If there are several boats around, as at Isthmus Cove, Catalina Island, you may literally find yourself surrounded by H2000s; and you can hear them well enough to significantly distract you from your otherwise peaceful sense of being on the water in a beautiful setting. And for what -- one or two nights on the ball? What is the true need here? If these things were so quiet as not to disturb anybody, the Catalina Island Company wouldn't need to specify a "quiet time" each day when no generators, specifically, are allowed to be running. At one time all you had to do was make sure you didn't anchor too near a powerboat or downwind of one. Now there's almost no escape except to go where few others will go, or go when few others will go!!

Noise

Please observe quiet hours in all harbors between 10:00 PM and 7:00 AM.

Generators
Quiet hours apply for all generator usage. For safety reasons, do not leave generators running when going ashore. Commercial-grade generators are not allowed. Decibel levels must be below 60dB, (normal voice level). If you encounter generator abuse, please contact the Harbor Dept. on VHF channel 9.

http://www.visitcatalinaisland.com/camping-boating/two-harbors-boating/mooring-information
 
Last edited:
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
You may not have the full picture here. The Honda generator will not charge up your batteries much faster (if at all) than your altenator would, which means that you'll end up having to run it often and you must also carry gasoline. So, there's almost no advantage to that expense unless you need to run AC appliances. But even then, I have often read here in this SBO forum how the boat electrical guys don't believe that they are safe to have aboard. They cannot be grounded properly, as I recall, and present a risk of CO poisoning, etc., plus they make a disagreeable noise in the pristine anchorages, even the "quiet" ones. You received the proper recommendation IMHO: upgrade your batteries and altenator; plus get an 85W to maybe 100W solar panel for extra support, or put a drain in your ice box so the water can be pumped out. Setting up a Honda 2000 to run on the foredeck and annoy your anchorage neighbors is the VERY LAST thing you should consider!:frown:
yep.... their are only 2 advantages to the honda generator.... it reduces the hours placed on the main engine, AND it supplies 120v power..... but the advantages are negated and an unnecessary expense if you have a proper solar installation.
so the money would be much better spent on solar panels and save the headache of any generator issues forever.

a proper sized solar arraingment is the answer to every power need on the boat... you can have an abundence of 12v DC charging, and you can install a good inverter and have as much 120v AC power that your solar/battery system can produce... it is only dependent on the "working size" of your solar instllation. and a proper installation can have a 20+ year lifespan.

but I do also agree that if one isnt open to dedicating some space for the installation, then they can never realize the freedom and advantages that solar offers a boat owner.
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,811
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
I really believe in Solar panels and once setup and investment there nothing
to do except letting the free sun go to work.
I have my solar panels over my bimini here in sunny florida I never remove the bimini any way and the panels are mounted to my arch and most boats down here have them mounted
above the bimini using the frame work or make up some type of frame that they add and this way they are always sucking up the sun all day and my boom does not cause any shading and went with 2-195 watt panel I got over in Miami at a very good price and heavy wire # 4 or 6 what ever the distance formula suggested and a Blue Sky solar boost 3024il.
I know it sounds like a lot but I took in the fact that you don't always get the full affect of the sun all the time depending on the weather.
We cruise a lot and have all the bells and whistles that draw 12 volt power and my wife has the gold card to 12volts unlimited usage any time she wants,I also have a Gen for backup
and so we have the perfect setup for enjoying boating out on the water and this has me doing many days of boating with her and friends.
Nick
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Please keep in mind that only the solar panel will completely recharge your batteries. Lead acid batteries NEED to get back to 100% SOC as often as is humanly possible.

A generator is good for BULK CHARGING, unless you want to listen to it for 7-10+ hours, which no one will be willing to do with a portable generator.

It takes 7-10+ hours to fully recharge lead acid batteries, including AGM's. Solar can do this especially if you have enough excess wattage and a couple of days with demands lower than what the array can provide. Solar can also result in overall shallower cycling which leads to less sulfation and longer battery life. Solar is also more charge efficient due to the low charging current so MPPT boost gains are a longer duration on boats than in large land based arrays where we have much higher current in relation to bank size.....

I would maximize the performance of the alternator & regulator, as well as solar, well before even considering a generator. I own a Honda EU2000 and it has never set foot on our vessel, nor will it, because our energy management system is a well engineered system and that means we have less than zero need for a generator.

As for adjustable solar panels, yes gains can certainly be made, but human error and forgetfulness often wipe out most all of those gains and then some. I have installed plenty of aim-able systems and I can't tell you how many times I have gone by customers boats swinging on the mooring where the panels are still AIMED and they have gone home..........

They just lost a good portion of that entire weeks solar gains and murdered their performance... This is NOT an infrequent occurrence. Best bet is a bimini top flat panels where you have no human interaction to mess up your gains.

Because this is what I do for a living I make note of every vessel I go by with aimed panels and 9 times out of 10 the panels are aimed to be producing LESS gain than more gain. It has actually caused me to re-think the virtues of aim-able panels in the real world... In a perfect world, eg; land based system, sure aim the panels sad reality is we simply don't live in a perfect world, nor on land, and boats swing wildly at anchor.... You can not over size solar on a sailboat so go as large as you possibly can.

There are ways to tweak and maximize performance and usually the best options are MPPT then one MPPT per panel. Large panels with higher voltages also have more cells to become shaded and take out the performance of the single large panel. This is where smaller panels in parallel or one MPPT controller per panel win. Last spring Genasun dropped the price of their small MPPT controllers by almost 50%!! Now a high quality & extremely fast tracking MPPT can be had for well under $100.00 making one controller per panel an affordable option. The new small Victron controllers can be custom programmed by a dealer with the equipment and are also good little controllers. Buying more watts is almost always the least expensive option but when you run out of space to put watts then MPPT shines...
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
As for adjustable solar panels, yes gains can certainly be made, but human error and forgetfulness often wipe out most all of those gains and then some. I have installed plenty of aim-able systems and I can't tell you how many times I have gone by customers boats swinging on the mooring where the panels are still AIMED and they have gone home..........

They just lost a good portion of that entire weeks solar gains and murdered their performance... This is NOT an infrequent occurrence. Best bet is a bimini top flat panels where you have no human interaction to mess up your gains.
This is true if your on a mooring or anchor. I have my boat in a slip right now and with the low winter sun (Arizona in late November), more than doubled the solar output by being able to adjust both azimuth and elevation of the solar panel.

My large gain is also due in part to the low winter sun arc. In the summer, the adjustable panel gain would be significantly less.
 
Nov 18, 2013
171
Catalina 310 Campbell River
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I really believe in Solar panels and once setup and investment there nothing to do except letting the free sun go to work.

I also have a Gen for backup

Nick
im very curious, with the good solar arraingment you have, and the trouble of carrying and storing the generator and its fuel, how often does it get used?....
I do agree that with careless usage, one could run their batteries down, but I also think that if they have their house and starting batteries seperated properly, there will never be a need for a genset... although if careless usage is the norm, then one may have to hang out on the hook for another day or two so the batteries can be brought back up.

I agree with Maine Sail that with a good and proper installation, the need for a generator becomes "less than zero"... and I think that with a good and proper solar installation, the need to spend hundreds upgrading to a high output alternator is greatly reduced also.
a good balmer external regulator is always a good investment to maximize the output of the OEM alternator, but the solar will be doing most of the work for many years to come, and the system would still function even if the engine alternator did not work at all. Im NOT suggesting that with solar there is no need for an engine charging system, but the need to maximize it is largely reduced...
 
Nov 18, 2010
2,441
Catalina 310 Hingham, MA
with refrigeration, 160watts wont be enough for a long term, trouble free system.
I think you are stating things a little generally without taking boat specific aspects into account. I also think some of the rest of your post gets a little misleading, especially when it comes to the quote on panel output. You can't make comments on panel output that generically and then talk about different controllers. The controller has a lot to do with the output.

I think a 160 watts would likely be fine for a C310. Our boats have a small fridge with OK insulation that ends up being fairly efficient. When I did my power consumption work sheet I cam up with an estimated usage of 50-125 amp hours per day. Of that 40 amp hours were to run the fridge. In reality that is closer to 25-35 amp hours per day. Our biggest power hog is the autopilot. So long days of sailing using the autopilot uses the most power per day. We have been pretty consistent with using about 40-50 amp hours per day while at anchor.

Our solar setup is two Renogy semiflexible panels at 100 wattts each in series into a MPPT controller. We are typically topped back up to 100% SOC by 1-2 PM every day. When we were in Oriental we had 4 days of rain and overcast. Even with that there was enough power generated by the panels that we didn't get below 60% SOC during that time (we have 460 amp hours in our bank supplied by 4 6 volt golf cart batteries). We've been living offgrid with this system for over 6 months now.

As far as the 160 watt panel that the OP is looking at, that's around 9 amps at 17 volts. Going into an MPPT controller that would be close to 11 amps at the appropriate voltage. With 4 hours of decent sun every day that would be 44 amp hours. So that would be close to 100% SOC. Of course this if rough math and the real math gets a little more complicated when you include bulk vs. absorption, charge efficiency, etc. But he would be in the ballpark of at least keeping at 85% SOC daily which is where most cruisers live.

I think the POs biggest issue is the two 4Ds that make up his house bank. The best money to spend on his electrical system is to get ride of those and get some real batteries like 6 volt GCs or maybe Firefly AGM. Then he can get true deep cycle performance and start thinking about other upgrades.

Fair winds,

Jesse
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I think you are stating things a little generally without taking boat specific aspects into account. I also think some of the rest of your post gets a little misleading, especially when it comes to the quote on panel output. You can't make comments on panel output that generically and then talk about different controllers. The controller has a lot to do with the output.

I think a 160 watts would likely be fine for a C310. Our boats have a small fridge with OK insulation that ends up being fairly efficient. When I did my power consumption work sheet I cam up with an estimated usage of 50-125 amp hours per day. Of that 40 amp hours were to run the fridge. In reality that is closer to 25-35 amp hours per day. Our biggest power hog is the autopilot. So long days of sailing using the autopilot uses the most power per day. We have been pretty consistent with using about 40-50 amp hours per day while at anchor.

Our solar setup is two Renogy semiflexible panels at 100 wattts each in series into a MPPT controller. We are typically topped back up to 100% SOC by 1-2 PM every day. When we were in Oriental we had 4 days of rain and overcast. Even with that there was enough power generated by the panels that we didn't get below 60% SOC during that time (we have 460 amp hours in our bank supplied by 4 6 volt golf cart batteries). We've been living offgrid with this system for over 6 months now.

As far as the 160 watt panel that the OP is looking at, that's around 9 amps at 17 volts. Going into an MPPT controller that would be close to 11 amps at the appropriate voltage. With 4 hours of decent sun every day that would be 44 amp hours. So that would be close to 100% SOC. Of course this if rough math and the real math gets a little more complicated when you include bulk vs. absorption, charge efficiency, etc. But he would be in the ballpark of at least keeping at 85% SOC daily which is where most cruisers live.

I think the POs biggest issue is the two 4Ds that make up his house bank. The best money to spend on his electrical system is to get ride of those and get some real batteries like 6 volt GCs or maybe Firefly AGM. Then he can get true deep cycle performance and start thinking about other upgrades.

Fair winds,

Jesse

your point is taken and understood, but this subject, like a lot of subjects on this forum, it is seldom "boat specific".. it could be any brand or model of boat.
and yes, 160watts may be enough, but it leaves little excess... for the extended stretches of extremely gloomy winter days, and yet the power draw goes on... maybe the OP never experiences this kind of weather where he is, and maybe he will never sail his boat to where this kind of weather does happen, but I dont know this.

my "general" idea/opinion is given from experience. when someone is going to put that much money into a system, why not put a few more dollars in so that there is plenty of power available for the times that you cant foresee, or for when the batteries get older and cant hold as much charge.... it is my thought that you should plan and build a system for what you may want to add next year, not just for the needs that is based on the usage of yesterday, or what was used today.

and as general as I was, there really is no need to be any more specic at this time, when the OP is still speculating.... when he starts asking for specifics, then we can help him out. but it isnt rocket science, so if ANYONE plans a system at a 50% working load of the panel rating, uses quality components, and assembles it correctly, they will have a nice system that they will be happy with for a long time.

its completely fine for the OP or anyone elses to build their system in any manner they choose, but when someone is asking for recommendations and experiences, I will always recommend what I know without a doubt will work for them, based on what they say their requirements are. and error on the safe side, rather than having any chance of them coming up short.

there will never be a time when someone says, "darn it!, I sure wish I didnt have so much power available from my system"... but a lot of us have heard someone grumble about all the money they spent on their system, but wish they would have spent the 2-300 more and got the bigger or better stuff....
 
May 16, 2007
1,509
Boatless ! 26 Ottawa, Ontario
We keep our boat in Florida but have never used it in the summer down there. The previous owner installed the generator when the boat was moved south and they used it to do a summer cruise each year. They didn't feel the boat was usable without AC.
Our friends kept their boat in the Chesapeake for a summer and felt they couldn't use it for over a month because it was too hot and humid and they did not have a generator.
AC is often the reason people want a generator I think.

The trend to add enough solar to maintain a cruising boat is relatively new. Most cruisers had a small panel or two and wind generator but needed the engine or generator to do the bulk of the charging. Things have changed so much in just the past few years with better controllers, bigger better panels and the cost today is a fraction of what it was even 5 years ago.

We did our solar installation last season, a 325W panel, a top quality controller and the whole thing including the support frame was a bit over $1000.

On smaller boats it can be difficult to find the shade free real estate to add enough solar to meet all your needs, a small generator may be the solution for some people.

Bob
 

KZW

.
May 17, 2014
831
Catalina 310 #307 Bluewater Bay, FL
You may not need an air conditioner up north. Here in the Gulf, when it is 92 degrees with 90% humidity, and the water temperature is 85 degrees, an air conditioner at night on anchor is very refreshing. To run one, you need a generator. I use a Honda i2000EU marine unit. I have brackets to hold it onto the top of one of the propane lockers in the stern. It works great. It is one of the quietest generators I've ever heard. That being said, when the winds are light and the water is calm, it sounds loud at anchor. One must consult neighbors before firing it up.
 
Jan 17, 2013
442
Catalina 310 St. Simons Island, GA
Do you have any pictures of the bracket you use to hold the generator? Would love to see that. AC is a significant factor for me since all of my cruising is in FL & GA.
bob
 

KI4ARJ

.
Nov 1, 2011
9
Hunter 30-2 Panama City Bh
I have the Honda E2000 to provide 110VAC when away from shore power. Works fine.
I have been researching the wind turbine. Your 160W solar tops out about 12AmpHr.
My sailing buddy has a wind turbine (400 W) which is about 30 Amp Hr. with a
20/25 kn wind (price about $500.) A combo of solar and wind with an inverter supplies
power day and night. It is rare not to have some wind on the water. do your research
on Amazon (wind turbines, MARINE able) for size and cost.
This is just another way
73s, KI4ARJ (Sergeant Mc)