So, let's say I go to Lithium Ion Batteries?

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Fortunately for me mine are only 2 years old. Way too young to change out. Maybe the LiIon batteries will be perfected by the time I need new ones. I would pay extra for them if I knew they were safe. I use 5 AA batteries on my on-camera flash. The lithium batteries are feather-light and seem to last forever. I never would have thought that the weight difference would make such a difference to me. But it does.
The Smart Battery 12V 150AH Lithium Ion Battery @ 49.2 lbs versus a 4D @ 110+ pounds. Times 4. If that doesn't affect the boat all that much, it certainly will my poor old back.
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
I was thinking the Firefly carbon mat battery would be what I would replace my gels with since it has fast recharge capabilities.
You do not get the constant voltage during depletion with the firefly that you do with LI. The biggest plus and the only reason I'd put the money into LI right now is no more voltage drop under big 12 volt loads like the IMRF, windlass, winches, etc. and no more battery voltage drops every time I turn on a big appliance on the inverter. Otherwise, I can't see any value in spending more than around $100.00 per 4d lead acid for a serviceable battery bank for 4 or 5 years. I've got no problem keeping the water filled for the difference in price, but not performance, of the fancy batteries.
 

CarlN

.
Jan 4, 2009
603
Ketch 55 Bristol, RI
My goal with batteries is to not to have to think about them. Maintaining a boat is a huge job. I'm constantly looking to reduce that maintenance load. Flooded batteries require water checks, long, slow charging and swap out at five years. AGM's require extremely careful management or not much time on the hook or they die in two years. LI's still seem to be an interesting science experiment where owners need to learn a lot about batteries. Quick, who can name three major brands of marine LI batteries that they'd recommend? So I'm going to Firefly. Drop in replacement. In my 800AH bank, voltage drop isn't a problem. No need to charge to 100% every day or limit discharge to 50%. Seems as close to "worry free" as we're going to get for now. If I get six or seven years of trouble free cruising, I'll be thrilled - and pleasantly surprised. And maybe LI will be equally simple by then.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I think the tech has moved beyond that;
"The Smart Battery 12V 150AH Lithium Ion Battery features an automatic built in battery protection system (BPS) that keeps the battery running at peak performance and protects the cells for thousands of cycles. The SB150 is plug and play for almost any application that currently uses a lead acid, gel or agm battery."
Smart Battery - BBB Rating

Any LFP battery with an internal BMS & contactor that lacks external communication to the DC charge system for proper safety shut downs, should really be avoided for use on board a boat.

Also, please check with your insurer before making any conversion to LFP.

Simple questions:


Let's say your alt regulator or inverter/charger have a hiccup or programming glitch and push the LFP battery to a disconnect/open circuit while charging.

What happens to everything on your DC bus, including navigation equipment, when the voltage transient, caused by an open circuit load dump, shoots your DC bus through the roof?

I know of no regulation circuitry that can react fast enough, with a charge source at full bore, to eliminate the possibility of a voltage transient causing damage to your gear. This includes alt regulators, inverters and other charge sources.

What happens when an unbalanced or out of balance cell (most "drop-in" batteries use lots of cylindrical cells) causes an end board temp sensor to shut one battery down under a high load or during charging? Are the remaining low amperage safety switches capable of handling this load?

What happens when the now different SOC battery automatically re-engages with the rest of the bank? Manual resets of any type of safety type breaker are an ABYC requirement so sealed batteries that re-set, on their own, already don't meet parts of the ABYC standards..


There is a reason the ABYC is working on a standard to address high capacity lithium-ion batteries.This work has been on-going since 2014..

"Drop in" Lithium-ion batteries, or batteries that lack external communication, communication that can properly shut down charge sources BEFORE a disconnect occurs, is just one of the issues of "drop in" batteries.

Look into how Victron, Mastervolt & the OPE-Li3 / Lithionics LFP batteries all do their BMS systems before you consider a drop-in LFP battery. These batteries are all designed for marine applicable use. LFP batteries should not be purchased based on price, in fact this is the worst way to buy them. Of the three brands mentioned above the OPE-Li3/Lithionics battery has passed the most third party safety testing.

A sealed LFP battery that can't externally communicate is simply sales guys trying to get into your pants like a cheap prom date. These "boxes" were initially designed to work on the sides of telephone poles in China to run solar lighting, hence the very low BMS safety switch current ratings. The fact that someone slaps a marine sticker on it does not make it such nor does it make it safe for a marine use installation.

Ask yourself what happens when the ABYC standard is finalized and your "drop-in" battery does not meet the minimum safe design and installation requirements?

If you want LFP then at this point Victron, Mastervolt or the OPE-Li3 systems from Bruce Schwab/Lithionics is the way to go. I do know some "drop-in" companies claim to be working on external communication but I also know this is a ways out.

If designed properly, used properly & installed properly LFP can be great but like many things is is NOT just a battery is it a complete system approach in order to do this correctly.

This may help give some more background.

LiFePO4 Batteries on Boats
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Great thread! I’m hunkered down here with my long-in-the-tooth AGM battery / charge technology watching you marine pioneers experiment with new battery technology. Encouraged that Maine Sail has not blowed himself up or set his boat on fire with lithium batteries; so clearly something good is developing. But a man has to know his limitations, so I will stick with the tried and true because I simply don’t have the discipline to learn everything I need to know about this new technology and I would hate to read about myself in the after-action casualty report!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Encouraged that Maine Sail has not blowed himself up or set his boat on fire with lithium batteries; so clearly something good is developing.
Even with LiFePO4 it can happen, but it's pretty tough to do. The far bigger concern is how easily these cells are ruined by incorrect charging. I know of far too many boat owners who've literally thrown 4-10K + away because they failed to understand the technology.

All that said a few weeks ago I surpassed 1000 cycles on our bank. Most of these cycles have been to 80% DOD and the banks original capacity is virtually unchanged. Not too bad for 9 year old cells.....

Before you get too excited, these cells have:

--Never been floated, they get charged, then discharged
--Never allowed to sit or be held at SOC's above 50% for very long
--Only absorbed to a net 8A - 10A at 13.8V -14.0V
--Never charged above 14.0V (unless for testing purposes but I have many other cells I can use for that)
--Max charge rate is approx .3C
--Stored at 40% - 50% SOC when not being actively used or cycled
--Stored in 45F - 60F temps when not being used or cycled
--Only very rarely exceeded 80F
--Cells were very carefully matched for resistance and Ah capacity
--Highest voltage they have ever seen was 3.8VPC while top balancing initially.
--Bottom voltage is 3.0V (cell level)
--Been capacity tested as a bank every 50 cycles since I began using them
--Individual cells are capacity tested ever 200 cycles, to ensure no cell drift
 
  • Like
Likes: capta

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Even with LiFePO4 it can happen, but it's pretty tough to do. The far bigger concern is how easily these cells are ruined by incorrect charging. I know of far too many boat owners who've literally thrown 4-10K + away because they failed to understand the technology.

All that said a few weeks ago I surpassed 1000 cycles on our bank. Most of these cycles have been to 80% DOD and the banks original capacity is virtually unchanged. Not too bad for 9 year old cells.....

Before you get too excited, these cells have:

--Never been floated, they get charged, then discharged
--Never allowed to sit or be held at SOC's above 50% for very long
--Only absorbed to a net 8A - 10A at 13.8V -14.0V
--Never charged above 14.0V (unless for testing purposes but I have many other cells I can use for that)
--Max charge rate is approx .3C
--Stored at 40% - 50% SOC when not being actively used or cycled
--Stored in 45F - 60F temps when not being used or cycled
--Only very rarely exceeded 80F
--Cells were very carefully matched for resistance and Ah capacity
--Highest voltage they have ever seen was 3.8VPC while top balancing initially.
--Bottom voltage is 3.0V (cell level)
--Been capacity tested as a bank every 50 cycles since I began using them
--Individual cells are capacity tested ever 200 cycles, to ensure no cell drift
Whew. Sounds like a lot of work.
How did that installation you did in Puerto Rico work out?
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Smart Battery - BBB Rating

Any LFP battery with an internal BMS & contactor that lacks external communication to the DC charge system for proper safety shut downs, should really be avoided for use on board a boat.

Also, please check with your insurer before making any conversion to LFP.

Simple questions:


Let's say your alt regulator or inverter/charger have a hiccup or programming glitch and push the LFP battery to a disconnect/open circuit while charging.

What happens to everything on your DC bus, including navigation equipment, when the voltage transient, caused by an open circuit load dump, shoots your DC bus through the roof?

I know of no regulation circuitry that can react fast enough, with a charge source at full bore, to eliminate the possibility of a voltage transient causing damage to your gear. This includes alt regulators, inverters and other charge sources.

What happens when an unbalanced or out of balance cell (most "drop-in" batteries use lots of cylindrical cells) causes an end board temp sensor to shut one battery down under a high load or during charging? Are the remaining low amperage safety switches capable of handling this load?

What happens when the now different SOC battery automatically re-engages with the rest of the bank? Manual resets of any type of safety type breaker are an ABYC requirement so sealed batteries that re-set, on their own, already don't meet parts of the ABYC standards..


There is a reason the ABYC is working on a standard to address high capacity lithium-ion batteries.This work has been on-going since 2014..

"Drop in" Lithium-ion batteries, or batteries that lack external communication, communication that can properly shut down charge sources BEFORE a disconnect occurs, is just one of the issues of "drop in" batteries.

Look into how Victron, Mastervolt & the OPE-Li3 / Lithionics LFP batteries all do their BMS systems before you consider a drop-in LFP battery. These batteries are all designed for marine applicable use. LFP batteries should not be purchased based on price, in fact this is the worst way to buy them. Of the three brands mentioned above the OPE-Li3/Lithionics battery has passed the most third party safety testing.

A sealed LFP battery that can't externally communicate is simply sales guys trying to get into your pants like a cheap prom date. These "boxes" were initially designed to work on the sides of telephone poles in China to run solar lighting, hence the very low BMS safety switch current ratings. The fact that someone slaps a marine sticker on it does not make it such nor does it make it safe for a marine use installation.

Ask yourself what happens when the ABYC standard is finalized and your "drop-in" battery does not meet the minimum safe design and installation requirements?

If you want LFP then at this point Victron, Mastervolt or the OPE-Li3 systems from Bruce Schwab/Lithionics is the way to go. I do know some "drop-in" companies claim to be working on external communication but I also know this is a ways out.

If designed properly, used properly & installed properly LFP can be great but like many things is is NOT just a battery is it a complete system approach in order to do this correctly.

This may help give some more background.

LiFePO4 Batteries on Boats
Boy! I thought 2 grand a battery was expensive, but you blew away that fantasy in a heartbeat!
Thanks for preventing me from making a pretty expensive mistake.
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
--Never been floated, they get charged, then discharged
--Never allowed to sit or be held at SOC's above 50% for very long
--Only absorbed to a net 8A - 10A at 13.8V -14.0V
--Never charged above 14.0V (unless for testing purposes but I have many other cells I can use for that)
--Max charge rate is approx .3C
As I read the care and feeding of this large capacity marine Lithium battery pack I see some interesting features: 1) The charge profile ends at absorption, 2) the absorption charge amperage is very modest, and 3) the overall charge rate is also very modest (0.3C). This would seem to suggest that the charging cycles have to be long and that this battery is not very well suited to large output charging systems that quickly dump AmpHours back in the the battery. The offset is that you really can, and should draw the Lithium battery way down.
--Stored at 40% - 50% SOC when not being actively used or cycled
Am I missing something here?
 

pateco

.
Aug 12, 2014
2,207
Hunter 31 (1983) Pompano Beach FL
@Maine Sail ,

Have you ever used these in a marine application?

Trojan SPRE 12 225 12V 225Ah Solar Smart Carbon True Deep Cycle Premium Battery


Trojan Solar.jpg

Trojan SPRE 12 225 12V 225Ah Solar Smart Carbon True Deep Cycle Premium Battery
Solar Premium batteries are optimized for Renewable Energy applications which operate under challenging conditions such as fluctuating or extreme temperatures, remote locations and the intermittent nature of solar and wind power generation. Designed with a 10-year battery life, Trojan Battery’s Solar Premium line of flooded, deep-cycle batteries is specifically engineered to withstand the rigorous conditions of renewable energy applications. Our product strategy is focused on one simple objective – manufacture the highest quality battery available in the industry, which is why our Premium line is tested to IEC standards.

Trojan SPRE 12 225 12V 225Ah Solar Smart Carbon True Deep Cycle Premium Battery Specifications:
  • Model:SPRE 12 225
  • Voltage: 12V
  • 10 Hour Rate: 179Ah
  • 20 Hour Rate: 204Ah
  • 48 Hour Rate: 212Ah
  • 72 Hour Rate: 216Ah
  • 100 Hour Rate: 225Ah
  • Weight: 132lbs
  • Length: 14.97in.
  • Width: 6.91n.
  • Height: 14.71in.
  • Country of Manufacture: U.S.A.
The Premium Line features:
  • Alpha Plus Paste with T2 Technology which optimizes porosity development in the active material enabling the active material to be used more effectively. This results in sustained battery performance over a longer period of time.
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  • Maxguard XL Separator is exclusively available in Trojan’s Premium and Industrial lines. It features a wide-channel design which increases acid flow for optimum battery performance, and provides even greater resistance to stratification, a typical mode of failure in batteries used in renewable energy systems.
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SMART CARBON Deep-cycle batteries used in off-grid and unstable grid applications are heavily cycled at partial state of charge (PSOC). Operating at PSOC on a regular basis can quickly diminish the overall life of a battery, which results in frequent and costly battery replacements. To address the impact of PSOC on deep-cycle batteries in renewable energy (RE), inverter backup and telecom applications, Trojan Battery has now included Smart Carbon™ as a standard feature in its Industrial (IND) and Premium (RE) flooded battery lines.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
1) The charge profile ends at absorption,
Yes there is really no need to absorb or float LFP cells and floating them, or keeping them in the high SOC ranges, is only detrimental to longevity.

2) the absorption charge amperage is very modest
That would be bulk amperage the absorption taper, even at 13.8V, is extremely short..

3) the overall charge rate is also very modest (0.3C).
You can charge them faster but we really have no need to be much higher than about 135A-140A which is about where we charge with the alt. (so really closer to .33-.35C.) In an hour of engine run time we can put back in two days worth of energy. With LFP there is no need to ever get back to 100% so this means you simply charge long enough to restore what you need, and for us, that is covered by even short charging times.

I've thought about building a large frame alt that can deliver 225A all day long but it's pretty low on the priority list. Right now we are running an alt that can deliver 135-140A continuously, and it works quite well.

This would seem to suggest that the charging cycles have to be long and that this battery is not very well suited to large output charging systems that quickly dump AmpHours back in the the battery.
It does not suggest that at all, I suspect you're stuck thinking lead acid.... The batteries can certainly take a lot more current but in order to do so means driving a large frame alt with a full custom built mount or a genset and multiple large I/C's or multiple 100A chargers. You're not going to find any small case alt that can do this. My initial intent was to go bigger on the alternator but we've found it is just not necessary. From 80% DOD to 100% SOC we can fully recharge in approx 2.5 hours, if we felt the need, but we never do. You replenish what you need and stop. No pressure to get back to 100%...

From 50% SOC, even with with AGM's, your looking at upwards of 6 + hours to get to 100% SOC, and you really need to, or sulfation sets in. With LFP if I get back to 50% SOC I am happy, so long as I have the energy I need for the time being. With LFP there is just no need to get back to 100%, ever, or to do a complete charge cycle, so you simply shut off charging when you have what you need. As I have said many times before losing the lead acid mentality is the toughest part for most LFP owners.


The offset is that you really can, and should draw the Lithium battery way down.
We don't even consider turning on our charge equipment until we get down to 70-80% DOD as LFP cells really like to be cycled. On a few occasions we've let the bank dip to 5% SOC without any worries.

Am I missing something here?
LFP cells do not like to be held or stored or held at high SOC's thus the recommended storage SOC, when at the dock or in the off season, is between 40% and 60% SOC. Even just letting cells sit there at 100% SOC, with no charging, shortens life. Just the opposite of lead acid...
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME