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So, let's say I go to Lithium Ion Batteries?

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,133
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
From all my research it seems one of the greatest features of lithium Ion batteries is their ability to be recharged at tremendously high amps, even 100% of their capacity.
Were I to build a 600 amp bank of these batteries; 12V 150AH Lithium Ion Battery | Deep Cycle Battery | Starting Battery | 4D, where would I find a 600 amp 12 volt battery charger to recharge them?
I find plenty of jump starters in this range, but no actual battery chargers. Would it be better to build a series/parallel bank to charge with 24 volts?
 
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SG

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
Yes, but your Pearson has a big alternator? And if you ever did need to draw the batteries down, you really can recharge them without all the fear of sulfation degradation.

I'm frankly tired of the Lifeline AGM's that used to "WORK", now sulfatiing up regardless of how I treat them with full charges, on-spec treatement, not discharging below 50% (usually about 75%).

I'm getting tired of having to run the generator on nice, long nights just to "treat the batteries right".

The biggest gripe I have so far, the Lithium Ion's are VERY, VERY, EXPENSIVE. We shopped around and bought some Relion Marine Batteries. The Mastervolts in the same capacity would have a lot more -- and they are too tall to fit where I needed to put them (thank goodness)!
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,133
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
We shopped around and bought some Relion Marine Batteries.
Just went to their website and was most disappointed that they don't list standard battery sizes like 4D, but use their own numbering system. No prices either. Who supplied yours?
 

SG

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
That might an issue for you if you're in the USVI's or not in the continental US. You have to check their site for dealers.

I bought mine (which are being installed next week) at the boat show in Annapolis last Fall (I didn't want them installed too soon) :^))). I bought them from Pasco in the Annapolis, MD area.
https://www.pascobattery.com/relion-lithium-batteries
.
 
Jun 9, 2004
615
Catalina 385 Marquette. Mi
Interesting history about the B-787 during the first couple of years after rollout.
 
Apr 5, 2009
1,339
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
The B-787 did not use LiFePo4 batteries so it is not an apple to apple comparison.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,608
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
In my experience, the Lithium ion batteries work great if you treat them right, but treating them right will require an unusual monitoring system. Very bad things can happen when they are not treated right. Do some wandering around youtube & watch some of the videos of LiFePo powered electric cars that went up is smoke. I would not go lithium unless I was ready to invest some extra time/effort/money into monitoring my bank.
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,133
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
In my experience, the Lithium ion batteries work great if you treat them right, but treating them right will require an unusual monitoring system. Very bad things can happen when they are not treated right. Do some wandering around youtube & watch some of the videos of LiFePo powered electric cars that went up is smoke. I would not go lithium unless I was ready to invest some extra time/effort/money into monitoring my bank.
I think the tech has moved beyond that;
"The Smart Battery 12V 150AH Lithium Ion Battery features an automatic built in battery protection system (BPS) that keeps the battery running at peak performance and protects the cells for thousands of cycles. The SB150 is plug and play for almost any application that currently uses a lead acid, gel or agm battery."
 
Jun 9, 2004
615
Catalina 385 Marquette. Mi
I’m not sure that the airlines would agree. My, (if not all) airline asks all passengers if there is any lithium batt in chkd baggage. If there is, it is removed. We even have a fire bag in the cabin for lithium battery fires. Scares me. The operative word would be “unattended”.
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,309
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Don't fool yourself into thinking the 787 battery system is rudimentary. I can assure you that it's way more refined than anything I've ever seen on a boat. They actually never did figure out exactly what the root cause was and there were 2 incidents. Just that they had thermal runaway. they are now contained in a strong sealed ss box vented to the outside with isolation for heat. They are still computer monitored continuously.

Ken
 

SG

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
Propane vs alcohol stoves? ;^)))

There are different Lithium Ion chemistries.
You have different battery charging and regulators.
There are batteries with their own built in charging management systems as redundant protection.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,608
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
I think the tech has moved beyond that;
"The Smart Battery 12V 150AH Lithium Ion Battery features an automatic built in battery protection system (BPS) that keeps the battery running at peak performance and protects the cells for thousands of cycles. The SB150 is plug and play for almost any application that currently uses a lead acid, gel or agm battery."
The tech may have moved beyond that. Tech in the battery industry moves very quickly these days. I haven't done any consulting in that industry for a few years now. My knowledge base, very well may be out of date.

I haven't seen anything on the open market yet that I think is truly safe for use by the general public, but that does not mean that it is not out there. The systems that I am familiar with, were really only suitable for use by a knowledgeable individual, even though they were sold to end users at a very high price with lots of promises. When used properly, those systems gave VERY good performance. When treated improperly, they could present some hazards.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,608
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Don't fool yourself into thinking the 787 battery system is rudimentary. I can assure you that it's way more refined than anything I've ever seen on a boat. They actually never did figure out exactly what the root cause was and there were 2 incidents. Just that they had thermal runaway. they are now contained in a strong sealed ss box vented to the outside with isolation for heat. They are still computer monitored continuously.

Ken
I assume that monitoring is at the cell level????
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,133
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
I believe that Mainesail addressed this issue with the aircraft batteries and if I remember correctly he stated that those problems were with a different technology, not what we are using for marine today.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,608
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
I am aware of a significant issue on one boat using LiFePo about a year & a half ago, in my area. It was new equipment that was installed by a boat manufacturer. Perhaps this is now out of date information. I did not read what Maine Sail had to say on the subject. I would be interested to learn where I can read what he wrote.
 
Oct 2, 2008
3,348
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
I was thinking the Firefly carbon mat battery would be what I would replace my gels with since it has fast recharge capabilities.
 
Feb 14, 2014
5,061
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
There are various Lithium Ion Chemistry batteries. Thus the confusion and design changing.
http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
I am learning it, slowly. Check out the comparison chart in this link.

The have been standardizing on tools and rechargeable hand held devices own this new size Li ion.
18650 size

I only bring this up since it appears that the
Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4) [LMO]
is a preferred choice.

If I was picking, so far,
Lithium Titanate (Li4Ti5O12)

Until there is a standard, retrofit Li ion, for my boat and charger. Make mine Lead Acid.
Jim...




 
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Kermit

.
Jul 31, 2010
5,491
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
Until there is a standard, retrofit Li ion, for my boat and charger. Make mine Lead Acid.
Jim...
Fortunately for me mine are only 2 years old. Way too young to change out. Maybe the LiIon batteries will be perfected by the time I need new ones. I would pay extra for them if I knew they were safe. I use 5 AA batteries on my on-camera flash. The lithium batteries are feather-light and seem to last forever. I never would have thought that the weight difference would make such a difference to me. But it does.
 

SG

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
There are various Lithium Ion Chemistry batteries. Thus the confusion and design changing.
http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
I am learning it, slowly. Check out the comparison chart in this link.

That's a pretty good reference, Jim.

Note the comments from the site on for Iron Phosphate (like the Relion's):

Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4)
In 1996, the University of Texas (and other contributors) discovered phosphate as cathode material for rechargeable lithium batteries. Li-phosphate offers good electrochemical performance with low resistance. This is made possible with nano-scale phosphate cathode material. The key benefits are high current rating and long cycle life, besides good thermal stability, enhanced safety and tolerance if abused.

Li-phosphate is more tolerant to full charge conditions and is less stressed than other lithium-ion systems if kept at high voltage for a prolonged time. (See BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries). As a trade-off, its lower nominal voltage of 3.2V/cell reduces the specific energy below that of cobalt-blended lithium-ion. With most batteries, cold temperature reduces performance and elevated storage temperature shortens the service life, and Li-phosphate is no exception. Li-phosphate has a higher self-discharge than other Li-ion batteries, which can cause balancing issues with aging. This can be mitigated by buying high quality cells and/or using sophisticated control electronics, both of which increase the cost of the pack. Cleanliness in manufacturing is of importance for longevity. There is no tolerance for moisture, lest the battery will only deliver 50 cycles. Figure 9 summarizes the attributes of Li-phosphate.

Li-phosphate is often used to replace the lead acid starter battery. Four cells in series produce 12.80V, a similar voltage to six 2V lead acid cells in series. Vehicles charge lead acid to 14.40V (2.40V/cell) and maintain a topping charge. Topping charge is applied to maintain full charge level and prevent sulfation on lead acid batteries.

With four Li-phosphate cells in series, each cell tops at 3.60V, which is the correct full-charge voltage. At this point, the charge should be disconnected but the topping charge continues while driving. Li-phosphate is tolerant to some overcharge; however, keeping the voltage at 14.40V for a prolonged time, as most vehicles do on a long road trip, could stress Li-phosphate. Time will tell how durable Li-Phosphate will be as a lead acid replacement with a regular vehicle charging system. Cold temperature also reduces performance of Li-ion and this could affect the cranking ability in extreme cases.




Figure 9: Snapshot of a typical Li-phosphate battery.
Li-phosphate has excellent safety and long life span but moderate specific energy and elevated self-discharge.
Courtesy of Cadex

Summary Table

Lithium Iron Phosphate: LiFePO4 cathode, graphite anode
Short form: LFP or Li-phosphate Since 1996
Voltages 3.20, 3.30V nominal; typical operating range 2.5–3.65V/cell
Specific energy (capacity) 90–120Wh/kg
Charge (C-rate) 1C typical, charges to 3.65V; 3h charge time typical
Discharge (C-rate) 1C, 25C on some cells; 40A pulse (2s); 2.50V cut-off (lower that 2V causes damage)
Cycle life 1000–2000 (related to depth of discharge, temperature)
Thermal runaway 270°C (518°F) Very safe battery even if fully charged
Applications Portable and stationary needing high load currents and endurance
Comments Very flat voltage discharge curve but low capacity. One of safest
Li-ions. Used for special markets. Elevated self-discharge.

Table 10: Characteristics of lithium iron phosphate.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,221
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
When I bought my self balancing scooter, I did a lot of research on batteries. One of the problems is because there is so much competition in the battery market, there are a lot of batteries that are knock offs, and may not be the composition as advertised. If you read Samsung's specs for the 18650, it works like it is supposed to. Even if you bypass the built in short circuit protection, it still will not get too hot. I think the bad rap is because of the inferior knock offs labeled as brand names.

As far as flying, one of the new things I have seen is that it is required that certain types of high capacity batteries need to be fully discharged.