"Simple" wiring question

[Db421]

I'm re-wiring my simple DC wiring and can't seem to get started.

I have a 10 hp outboard electric start with it's own starter battery and a separate house battery. My house loads are fairly modest as I only have running lights, radios, and a few cabin lights. I have no need to switch the batteries together as far as I can tell. Question is: if I use 6 AWG battery cables, how do I run the positive to the positive end of the panel. there is no + bar on the panel only 16AWG leads on the positive and 16 AWG leads jumping from neg to neg. I can run the last 16 from the end of the panel to a neg bus bar then back to the neg terminal on the battery, but it seems odd to connect a 6 battery cable to the first 16 on the positive side of the panel. When I mock up the system, it works fine. I'm just leary that there will be some kind of trouble when I load the whole system. The PO had 6 16 guage wires bolted to the lug on the end of the positive main lead. These leads went to each individual switch on the panel. Looks like a mess and seemed dangerous. I think I'm making too much out of this but it seems like the panel should have a large lug on the positive side to attach the battery cable to. Any response welcome. Thanks in advance!

 

[SEMIJim]

Each load, switched or not, has to have a home run, both positive and negative, back to their respective bus bars.

Think about it: If you daisy-chain positive, negative or both, then the closer you get to the supply, the more current each jumper will be required to carry.

(I really need to decide on a schematic program, so I can easily generate drawings to illustrate these things.)

Jim

 

[Marty A]

My previous boat did have copper bus bars with many small screws and at least one large stud for connection to the battery (or, more specifically, to the battery switch and breaker/fuse).

I'm in no way recommending this vendor (have NO knowledge) but this is an example of what I mean.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150-Amp-48V...Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item45fa8c9ad8#ht_687wt_906

 

[Db421]

Thanks for the quick response! I understand the "home run" thing...I just think it's funny that there isn't a large lug on the panel to attach the positive battery cable to. I have a positive hub Like a round bus bar)that has a center lug surrounded by smaller screws to attach positive leads to. I could use that as the terminus of the positive battery cable the run a 16 g wire to the first fuse/switch on the panel. It seems silly to use the hub for that purpose. What am I missing here?

 

[Db421]

My previous boat did have copper bus bars with many small screws and at least one large stud for connection to the battery (or, more specifically, to the battery switch and breaker/fuse).

I'm in no way recommending this vendor (have NO knowledge) but this is an example of what I mean.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150-Amp-48V...Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item45fa8c9ad8#ht_687wt_906

Marty, I didn't see that you had also resonded to my question when I posted my reply. That is exactly what I have for a negative bus bar. The one I'm calling a positive bus bar is a disk with the stud in the center and the smaller screws surrounding it. I amounts to the same thing, and you confirmed what I was thinking about how to put things together. Thanks.

 

[Ron20324]

You should be able to buy a "buss" bar that would attatch to each circuit breaker lug. It's just a bar with a hole to screw to each CB. Then it should have a larger lug to attach the battery feed to. If I read you correctly, you'd run ONE 16 to feed all the breakers? No, please. Maybe you need a 'proper' panel?

 

[Stu Jackson]

ix:

or a wiring diagram.

We "think" we understand what you're after. Buy a bus bar and install and it and wire it up.

 

[Db421]

You should be able to buy a "buss" bar that would attatch to each circuit breaker lug. It's just a bar with a hole to screw to each CB. Then it should have a larger lug to attach the battery feed to. If I read you correctly, you'd run ONE 16 to feed all the breakers? No, please. Maybe you need a 'proper' panel?

Thanks again guys; Ron, I didn't think that it was wise to run one 1g wire to all of the fuses but it looks like that is the way this is rigged. This is a West marine panel that I pulled off a sister ship that I bought a few years ago for parts. It looks like all of the neg wires are jumping from switch to switch. there is an extra lead on the end switch running to negative on the battery and one on the opposite switch running to the postitive on the battery. Seems to me that like you say, each neg and pos should run to a buss. Can anyone tell from the pictures if I have something wrong on the panel? I believe this is the way it was rigged on the previous boat (the boat was wrecked on the rocks, not the victim o an electrical fire). Thanks again.

 

[Chris Patterson]

I had one of those panels. And yes, all the grounds were wired together. Why, I have no idea, I didn't want a ground anywhere near the panel. So, I cut the ring terminal off, and attached the positive to it.
It was baffling at first, and to me made no sense. I guess some electrical genius somewhere thought this was a good idea.
So, me being the moron that I am,
I changed it..

 

[Ron20324]

Oh. Fuses. I believe the ground is there to work the lights inside the switches? I don't see a fuse for "running lights". I assume you have them? /// Do you have a list of the fuse sizes or the rating limit per circuit as provided by the maker? Some of the circuits would not be on at the same time, so that drops the load. Well, that's the way they made it, and though it's not ideal now that we see only 1/4 push-on lugs, there's some limit to that. In the West book they have up to a #10 wire on those 1/4 disconnects. You didn't say how far away your battery was, and obviously the bigger and shorter the feeder wire is, the less voltage loss to the panel. AND, there should be a fuse at the battery end if that feed.///

IF anything, you could put a single-stud power post (like in your 4th pic, but not necessarily with all the little screws) to terminate the battery feed large wire and a smaller wire (#10) to feed the panel where that pink wire presently is. Just put a quality push-on copnnector and crimp it properly, and you should be good to go. You could alternately just use a #10 from the batt direct to the panel.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Right. You could also maybe look at Miner Brotherington's 12 Volt Bible, which is a book (of many out there) which shows how to wire a panel. I'm sure those wiring diagrams are also available on the internet. What you have is a basic fused panel with, As Ron said, with lights.

West Marine has a very good link on their on-line Advisors, about suggested books to read:

BOOKS

Every so often folks ask: "What book should I buy to learn electrical stuff about my boat?"

The appropriate answer is: "Depends on how you like to learn."

Go to a chandlery and read a few in person, and start by buying one that you think suits your "level" and is "readable" to you."

A good starting list is provided by West Marine in the their online Advisors (and usually in their catalogs, one of which should be in your house and the other on your boat).

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...ecommended-Books-on-Marine-Electrical-Systems

 

[c_witch]

Hiee,

I have a similar type panel only with the push button breakers. I installed 2 bus bars on for the positive and one for the negative. All returning leads from a circuit connect to the negative bus and all feeds to the panel feed off of the positive bus. Both buses have large lugs at each end to accommodate large lugs.

c_witch

 

[Db421]

Thank you all for the help. I've got a lot to work with, but I have to take a few days to work on some health issues. Will pick it up again in a few days. In the meantime, does anyone have a picture of a simple panel installation?

 

[Dan Johnson]

Re: "Simple" wiring question...

When I created a new expanded panel for my last boat, I used a buss bar block for both the positive and negative feeds to the panel. A 1-2 switch determined which house battery to draw from. Each of the panels was a readily available fuse panel. Each was had a positive feed from the positive buss. Negatives were all tied into a much larger negative buss. A 50 amp fuse was placed between the 1-2 switch and the positve buss.

See pix...

 

[Forrest15112]

When I created a new expanded panel for my last boat, I used a buss bar block for both the positive and negative feeds to the panel. A 1-2 switch determined which house battery to draw from. Each of the panels was a readily available fuse panel. Each was had a positive feed from the positive buss. Negatives were all tied into a much larger negative buss. A 50 amp fuse was placed between the 1-2 switch and the positve buss.

See pix...

Hey Dan, what's in that rolled up plastic baggy in the second pic? Did I see some rolling papers in the first pic?

 

[Db421]

Hey Dan,

Your panels look just like mine except that my installation should be much simpler. It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like your fuses/switches are "jumpered" together as well. The only reason I can think of for doing this is because of the lights in the switches. Here's a simple schematic that I think illustrates what I have going on. If I'm right about the lights, my left diagram is wrong because it seems like the lights should lite up when the switch is thrown. I mocked up a circuit like in my " as it seems to be wired" diagram and it worked fine ( switch light on when switch is turned on and device on the circuit activated). My only question about all of this now is that it seem rediculous to have all of the circuits fed by a 10 0r 12 g wire from the battery. Am I nuts?


Thank you all for putting up with this thread. I really appreciate it!

 

[Ron20324]

...Here's a simple schematic that I think illustrates what I have going on. If I'm right about the lights, my left diagram is wrong because it seems like the lights should lite up when the switch is thrown. I mocked up a circuit like in my " as it seems to be wired" diagram and it worked fine ( switch light on when switch is turned on and device on the circuit activated). My only question about all of this now is that it seem rediculous to have all of the circuits fed by a 10 0r 12 g wire from the battery. Am I nuts?


In your left pic, the ckts would be activated all the time, and the only purpose of the switch is to light the light and feed the fuse. The right hand pic is NOT right. The multiple feeds from the neg buss bar are uncalled for. Just wire the panel + with a # 10 wire from the panel to the battery + and that's as good as you need. You're over-concerned about this.

OOPS-UPDATE. I think your drawing on the right is NOT the way it is wired. The neg goes to the switch/light, not the fuse. The only reason the neg is on the panel is to light the switch, NOT to feed the circuits. That would come from some other buss bar/post. Your neg batt feed to the circuits is not even displayed in your photos. Run the #10 to that buss bar, then wire each circuit AND the panel neg to the buss bar. Label each wire with what it feeds!

 

[Db421]

Thanks Ron, you're absolutely right. The neg does go to the switch, pos to the fuse. negatives do jump from switch to switch though. Question is; is there any difference between my left and right drawings as far as the negative from the bus bar is concerned? It seems like at some point negative goes to battery weather individually or grouped .

 

[Dan Johnson]

Hey Forrest...

The "baggie" contains spare fuses, not papers and "stuff"...:dance:

 

[Dan Johnson]

Db421...

I may be saying the same thing as Ron. The "As it seems to be" is the factory wiring for the panel. There is no need for a buss bar on the positive side between each switch and load unless you have a need to separate the connections a second time.

Each load would connect to the switch tab with a crimped on slide-on female connector. The positive buss bar would be redundant. The negative buss on the panel is just for the switch lights. The loads' negatives should be connected to a separate buss bar connected back to a battery's negative terminal (or to a common negative battery post for multiple batteries).

I did use Ancor #10 AWG wiring for my battery feeds (50 amp fuse protected) and Ancor #12 AWG for all my load runs. In this old boat, the only wiring I could not access to replace was the overhead lighting runs, which was sandwiched between the deck and inner liner during construction.

On the back side of the opened panel you can see a black wire buss between the battery switch and the first fuse panel (the one with the meter). This is where all the load negatives were tied together and a single negative was taken back to a common negative battery post (two battery system).