Boy this says it all,,,,,,,, Im trying to replace the thru-deck block of my swing keel....it has cracked over the years and I want to replace it with the same block that has worked for 20 years.... So I look,,,cant find the diameter in any of the cataloges or online.....I have a 1/2" diameter all rope pennant,,,the largest block I can find is 7/16", that may do but I wanted to go larger, rather than smaller.....I hunt,,,finally I decide to go directly to Harken...email them this morning get the same response from 2 people...one customer service the other Technical servive.....Here are the responses. 1) Customer Service response: Harken would not recommend a block for a swinging keel. It can be a liability issue, therefore the Harken staff cannot recommend a replacement block. I really wish I could help you out, but Harken encourages staff and all persons to be cautious when choosing parts for abstract applications. If you have further questions please feel free to contact Technical Service at... 2). Technical Service response: Usually Harken will not get involved in picking out blocks for swinging keels. Not to say that we do not have a block that would work but we will not get involved for liability reasons. Sorry this is the best I can tell you. I am not trying to avoid you. HEY, I never asked them to choose a block,,,all I asked was if they had one larger than the 7/16"...now they wont even give me a selection of there own product line...... I didnt design this swing keel Im only replacing a cracked block......this lawsuite society, is driving me and im sure many nervous suppliers such as Harken crazy!....and quite frankly this is ludicrus that they will not even give me a selection of there own product line that " May" work.,,,Hell Ill sign a release!...is this what it takes?
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Check it out
Go straight to the source (see the link below), and you will find blocks that handle line sizes up to 1" - and you can calculate the required load capacity and specify your own blocks, and as they note in an offhand way, you can assume liability for their application and use. Good Luck! Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Go straight to the source (see the link below), and you will find blocks that handle line sizes up to 1" - and you can calculate the required load capacity and specify your own blocks, and as they note in an offhand way, you can assume liability for their application and use. Good Luck! Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
MSDS for a hacksaw...
Don't feel alone. This morning I received an e-mail from one of our techs asking if he needed to maintain a material safety data sheet for his new hacksaw. I had him forward it to me and it was genuine. I called the manufacturer and the reply was: "A consumer was using one of our hacksaws to cut copper hardened with beryllium which resulted in respiratory problems for the user. Because of the resulting lawsuit, we now include an MSDS to warn about the inhalation hazards when cutting any materials with our saws." SHEESH! Cheers, Bob
Don't feel alone. This morning I received an e-mail from one of our techs asking if he needed to maintain a material safety data sheet for his new hacksaw. I had him forward it to me and it was genuine. I called the manufacturer and the reply was: "A consumer was using one of our hacksaws to cut copper hardened with beryllium which resulted in respiratory problems for the user. Because of the resulting lawsuit, we now include an MSDS to warn about the inhalation hazards when cutting any materials with our saws." SHEESH! Cheers, Bob
You can thank...
...John Edwards, (Yes, coming to a presidential election near you soon, lol) and his ilk for crap like that. I'm from NC and can talk about him and his ilk. If you were to look at some of the cases he did and seen the astronomical awards he got that insurance companies had to pay, (That means it trickles down to you and me by the way) you would understand where I am coming from. The best one I saw (And Johnny didn't have anything to do with this one) was the company in Greensboro, NC that had been making machine equipment for like 100 years or better...they were sued for not putting guards on machines that were pushing 100 years old at the time! (I think it was Newman Machine Works.) They wound up going out of business. Imagine a company making equipment that lasts that long... So study the people you vote for, find out what they do for a living...and if they are ambulance chasers and you help vote them in...you get what you got. That's why we wind up with an MSDS for a hacksaw blade. Fair winds! Jack
...John Edwards, (Yes, coming to a presidential election near you soon, lol) and his ilk for crap like that. I'm from NC and can talk about him and his ilk. If you were to look at some of the cases he did and seen the astronomical awards he got that insurance companies had to pay, (That means it trickles down to you and me by the way) you would understand where I am coming from. The best one I saw (And Johnny didn't have anything to do with this one) was the company in Greensboro, NC that had been making machine equipment for like 100 years or better...they were sued for not putting guards on machines that were pushing 100 years old at the time! (I think it was Newman Machine Works.) They wound up going out of business. Imagine a company making equipment that lasts that long... So study the people you vote for, find out what they do for a living...and if they are ambulance chasers and you help vote them in...you get what you got. That's why we wind up with an MSDS for a hacksaw blade. Fair winds! Jack
Why do you think its ludicrus...this is what..
society wants. People complain about stupid court rulings yet they keep voting for politicians that appoint these secular progressive judges. I loved it when one of my employee voted for a tax and spend politician. Three months later she was upset that I was taking too much out of her paycheck..."it must be a mistake"....well, I reminded her of whom she voted for and that is the person she needs to talk to.
society wants. People complain about stupid court rulings yet they keep voting for politicians that appoint these secular progressive judges. I loved it when one of my employee voted for a tax and spend politician. Three months later she was upset that I was taking too much out of her paycheck..."it must be a mistake"....well, I reminded her of whom she voted for and that is the person she needs to talk to.
Don't forget...
the one regarding Winibago. The driver left the drivers seat to get a cup of coffee. The motor home was in cruise control and crashed. A huge judgement was awarded because there was no warning lable regarding leaving the seat while in cruise control. Seems the driver thought it was an auto pilot. Who is worse, the driver, the lawyer who took the case or the jury who awarded the judgement? P.S. - Don't remember if this one was true.
the one regarding Winibago. The driver left the drivers seat to get a cup of coffee. The motor home was in cruise control and crashed. A huge judgement was awarded because there was no warning lable regarding leaving the seat while in cruise control. Seems the driver thought it was an auto pilot. Who is worse, the driver, the lawyer who took the case or the jury who awarded the judgement? P.S. - Don't remember if this one was true.
Reason
Reason seems to be rare!!! But the tax and spend got me thinking about a sign of the times. We used to tax to pay for government...a long time ago. But now they want to borrow and spend. Look at how the national debt has exploded. And as real people who have mortages know it cost to borrow money. Even at low interest rates it costs a lot to borrow $8-10 trillion. Supposedly we were paying about 400 billion a year in untrerest a couple of years ago. I am afraid to look now. But with todays credit card mentality borrow and let someone else pay the bills later I'll gladly take the tax and spend people. Borrow and spend is crazy!!! Ask any businessman. We are spending more on interest on the national debt than any other thing!!!!!!! Reasonable liability is good. If someone gets killed or injured due to a business selling crap that they know is unsafe they should be forced to pay. Like the Ford Pinto's exploding gas tank. It also makes sense that if Harken tells me that a block is suitable for a particular application it should be suitable. Just like I expect the brakes on my truck to work ...everytime. Crazy me even thinks that my tires shouldn't blowout as I'm driving to the boat. Unreasonable is expecting my underinflated tread less tires with 100,000 miles on thenm to be blowout proof. Or for my brakes to work without brakefluid and pads. Reason...so rare. To be fair and balanced I saw where Cessna was sued for an accident involving a 40 year old plane...that does seem unreasonable.
Reason seems to be rare!!! But the tax and spend got me thinking about a sign of the times. We used to tax to pay for government...a long time ago. But now they want to borrow and spend. Look at how the national debt has exploded. And as real people who have mortages know it cost to borrow money. Even at low interest rates it costs a lot to borrow $8-10 trillion. Supposedly we were paying about 400 billion a year in untrerest a couple of years ago. I am afraid to look now. But with todays credit card mentality borrow and let someone else pay the bills later I'll gladly take the tax and spend people. Borrow and spend is crazy!!! Ask any businessman. We are spending more on interest on the national debt than any other thing!!!!!!! Reasonable liability is good. If someone gets killed or injured due to a business selling crap that they know is unsafe they should be forced to pay. Like the Ford Pinto's exploding gas tank. It also makes sense that if Harken tells me that a block is suitable for a particular application it should be suitable. Just like I expect the brakes on my truck to work ...everytime. Crazy me even thinks that my tires shouldn't blowout as I'm driving to the boat. Unreasonable is expecting my underinflated tread less tires with 100,000 miles on thenm to be blowout proof. Or for my brakes to work without brakefluid and pads. Reason...so rare. To be fair and balanced I saw where Cessna was sued for an accident involving a 40 year old plane...that does seem unreasonable.
Way out of hand
My good friend is a very experienced real-estate attorney and a partner in a law-firm. The other partners discouraged him from becoming a board certified real-estate attorney because it would make him an expert and that would open him up for a lawsuit if he made a mistake. These trial lawyers will go after anybody.
My good friend is a very experienced real-estate attorney and a partner in a law-firm. The other partners discouraged him from becoming a board certified real-estate attorney because it would make him an expert and that would open him up for a lawsuit if he made a mistake. These trial lawyers will go after anybody.
Whose fault
Whose "fault" is it that we have these outrageous lawsuits and damages awards? Judges? not really, as anyone who is involved in the court system will tell you. (full disclosure time: I am a lawyer, although I have never been involved in a lawsuit; I now do environmental compliance law for a railroad. I was however a prosecuter for a good number of years in NYC). Judges are under immense pressure to reduce their caseloads. Judges are happy to have cases filed that they can legitmately dismiss without trials. Lawyers? to be sure, there are ambulance chasers out there, both high and low class who talk some gullible people into filing cases. But those are generally weak cases that don't generate the kind of facts or damage awards you read about. Actually, the most cupable parties in my view are the juries; yes those normal everday folks who would rather not be there. They are the ones who make the findings that manufacturers were negligent. They are also the ones who decide how much the damage award will be; not the judge, not the lawyers. Disgusted with the fact that the lady who spilled hot coffee in her lap was awarded millions? It was the jury. Are these juries so stupid and gullable, or are they plain nuts? The fact is, that unless you were in the courtroom and heard what they heard, you can't judge the job they did. Whenever I hear about a jury award that makes no sense to me, my first thought is not "what a crock", but that there is something I don't know, that the jury does know. I don't think anyone can say our court system is 100% fair; it is however the envy of the rest of the world. What does all of this have to do with sailing? Couldn't tell you. Maybe its time for this thread to move to the rants and raves forum.
Whose "fault" is it that we have these outrageous lawsuits and damages awards? Judges? not really, as anyone who is involved in the court system will tell you. (full disclosure time: I am a lawyer, although I have never been involved in a lawsuit; I now do environmental compliance law for a railroad. I was however a prosecuter for a good number of years in NYC). Judges are under immense pressure to reduce their caseloads. Judges are happy to have cases filed that they can legitmately dismiss without trials. Lawyers? to be sure, there are ambulance chasers out there, both high and low class who talk some gullible people into filing cases. But those are generally weak cases that don't generate the kind of facts or damage awards you read about. Actually, the most cupable parties in my view are the juries; yes those normal everday folks who would rather not be there. They are the ones who make the findings that manufacturers were negligent. They are also the ones who decide how much the damage award will be; not the judge, not the lawyers. Disgusted with the fact that the lady who spilled hot coffee in her lap was awarded millions? It was the jury. Are these juries so stupid and gullable, or are they plain nuts? The fact is, that unless you were in the courtroom and heard what they heard, you can't judge the job they did. Whenever I hear about a jury award that makes no sense to me, my first thought is not "what a crock", but that there is something I don't know, that the jury does know. I don't think anyone can say our court system is 100% fair; it is however the envy of the rest of the world. What does all of this have to do with sailing? Couldn't tell you. Maybe its time for this thread to move to the rants and raves forum.
I have some "new" news
Thanks for everyones input,,,,Harken and I have been back and forth 3 emails each, in which they asked for photos, that I sent, the final answer is that the block I was looking for and found on my own, WAS the largest that they sell "FOR THAT APPLICATION" and if they can be of any futher assistance please dont hesitate to call..... so whom DO you ask???....if not the manufactueres technical assistance department for a straight answer???...I am purchasing their product and expertice when I make my purchase arnt I ????? ok this can move to the rants forum now. still frustrated, and blockless. Rob
Thanks for everyones input,,,,Harken and I have been back and forth 3 emails each, in which they asked for photos, that I sent, the final answer is that the block I was looking for and found on my own, WAS the largest that they sell "FOR THAT APPLICATION" and if they can be of any futher assistance please dont hesitate to call..... so whom DO you ask???....if not the manufactueres technical assistance department for a straight answer???...I am purchasing their product and expertice when I make my purchase arnt I ????? ok this can move to the rants forum now. still frustrated, and blockless. Rob
Im sorry lets be clear
They didnt use the exact words, FOR THAT APPLICATION"...its a thru-deck block, and THAT is the Application...this having nothing to do with swing keels, as they specificaly stated not for swing keel use.
They didnt use the exact words, FOR THAT APPLICATION"...its a thru-deck block, and THAT is the Application...this having nothing to do with swing keels, as they specificaly stated not for swing keel use.
Semantics & nautical terminology
Rob - If you were looking for the 'wheel' that the keel pennant ran over, you may have been more successful if you looked for a SHEAVE, same as is found at the masthead etc. A block is an assembly of one or more sheaves + the structure to retain the axle & the sides ( cheekplates, I think thry're called) Try asking around for a sheave of X diameter, for a 1/2" fiber rope (sheaves are also manufactured for wire rope & have a different profile for that application) If critical, you could also specify the axle diameter, and what type of bearing you want ( plain bronze bushed or rollers etc) As to the "lawsuit society" we live in, Mike has put his finger on it. In Canada ( please fellas, sit down. This isn't political or flag waving) civil suits are heard before judges only, at least in most cases, and NOT juries. The awards for damages, if proven, are much lower. In some cases, they're ridiculously low and clearly unfair, but the whole idea of huge awards because of 'deep pockets' is largely absent. I leave it to wiser heads than mine to judge the merits & demerits of the two systems, & besides, this forum is abt. boats, not legal systems. Keep looking, Rob.
Rob - If you were looking for the 'wheel' that the keel pennant ran over, you may have been more successful if you looked for a SHEAVE, same as is found at the masthead etc. A block is an assembly of one or more sheaves + the structure to retain the axle & the sides ( cheekplates, I think thry're called) Try asking around for a sheave of X diameter, for a 1/2" fiber rope (sheaves are also manufactured for wire rope & have a different profile for that application) If critical, you could also specify the axle diameter, and what type of bearing you want ( plain bronze bushed or rollers etc) As to the "lawsuit society" we live in, Mike has put his finger on it. In Canada ( please fellas, sit down. This isn't political or flag waving) civil suits are heard before judges only, at least in most cases, and NOT juries. The awards for damages, if proven, are much lower. In some cases, they're ridiculously low and clearly unfair, but the whole idea of huge awards because of 'deep pockets' is largely absent. I leave it to wiser heads than mine to judge the merits & demerits of the two systems, & besides, this forum is abt. boats, not legal systems. Keep looking, Rob.
If you can't find a factory one , have one made
Many a good machinist will custom make hardware such as that. I make alot of replacement parts for my boats and tractors and antique power hammers and other machinery.
Many a good machinist will custom make hardware such as that. I make alot of replacement parts for my boats and tractors and antique power hammers and other machinery.
Best Blocks AND Service from Garhauer
Check out Garhauer Marine. Their blocks were rated best by practical sailor and were around HALF the price of Harken and the other big names. It's a family run operation that truly understands customer service. They will bend over backwards to get you what you need and they stand behind their products. They make fantastic products and sell them at a reasonable price, which in the sailing world, makes the prices look super cheap!! Don't support businesses that do not provide excellent service! Garhauermarine.com
Check out Garhauer Marine. Their blocks were rated best by practical sailor and were around HALF the price of Harken and the other big names. It's a family run operation that truly understands customer service. They will bend over backwards to get you what you need and they stand behind their products. They make fantastic products and sell them at a reasonable price, which in the sailing world, makes the prices look super cheap!! Don't support businesses that do not provide excellent service! Garhauermarine.com
I don't get it ...
I don't know what to say ... I could bite my tongue and say nothing ... I could offer to help and ask the same questions that Harken did ... or ... Just how far is Pewaukee Wisconsin from Georgetown Maryland? I'm amazed that there are no riggers in Georgetown. It looks like Georgetown is darn near surrounded by water ... isn't Baltimore just across the way? No Riggers in Baltimore either? It is a sorry state of affairs that you have to work with someone 1000's of miles away! I'd be outraged! And to think a bunch of cheese-heads that sail ice boats, don't have a through deck block for your 20 year old boat! The nerve! If you are not completely PO'd at me by know ... Seriously ... just take the old part to your friendly local rigger ... show them what you want. That is what they are in business to do ... fix boats and solve problems. Face it ... your boat is TWENTY years old. Swing keel through deck blocks never have been a high volume items. Chances are that the builder made something work rather than purchase a purpose built item. Thus, chances are that you too will have to make something that was not designed for the application work ... (psssst that's what riggers do). They may have to build something, it may cost you $80/hour for them to do it ... how much time have you spent trying to do it yourself? Does feel good to rant though doesn't it?
I don't know what to say ... I could bite my tongue and say nothing ... I could offer to help and ask the same questions that Harken did ... or ... Just how far is Pewaukee Wisconsin from Georgetown Maryland? I'm amazed that there are no riggers in Georgetown. It looks like Georgetown is darn near surrounded by water ... isn't Baltimore just across the way? No Riggers in Baltimore either? It is a sorry state of affairs that you have to work with someone 1000's of miles away! I'd be outraged! And to think a bunch of cheese-heads that sail ice boats, don't have a through deck block for your 20 year old boat! The nerve! If you are not completely PO'd at me by know ... Seriously ... just take the old part to your friendly local rigger ... show them what you want. That is what they are in business to do ... fix boats and solve problems. Face it ... your boat is TWENTY years old. Swing keel through deck blocks never have been a high volume items. Chances are that the builder made something work rather than purchase a purpose built item. Thus, chances are that you too will have to make something that was not designed for the application work ... (psssst that's what riggers do). They may have to build something, it may cost you $80/hour for them to do it ... how much time have you spent trying to do it yourself? Does feel good to rant though doesn't it?
It is the judges
If the judges would throw out all these silly lawsuits we would all benefit. I'm just a little fed up with hearing that: I didn't know that hot coffee is hot (spilled MacD coffee in her lap) I didn't know there is electricity in those wall outlets (kid stuck a paperclip into the outlet) I didn't know that you shouldn't use Preparation H orally (regrettably, this is on the warning label on the box so I assume someone has tried to get a kid to shut up or some crazy such nonsense) I didn't know that you .......(the list is endless) I mean really! Do judges think these complaints adhere to the "reasonable man" theory? judges must think we are really dumb. Next they are going to be suing every body in the marina because nobody told him his boat could sink at the dock if you leave the thru-hull open.
If the judges would throw out all these silly lawsuits we would all benefit. I'm just a little fed up with hearing that: I didn't know that hot coffee is hot (spilled MacD coffee in her lap) I didn't know there is electricity in those wall outlets (kid stuck a paperclip into the outlet) I didn't know that you shouldn't use Preparation H orally (regrettably, this is on the warning label on the box so I assume someone has tried to get a kid to shut up or some crazy such nonsense) I didn't know that you .......(the list is endless) I mean really! Do judges think these complaints adhere to the "reasonable man" theory? judges must think we are really dumb. Next they are going to be suing every body in the marina because nobody told him his boat could sink at the dock if you leave the thru-hull open.
LETS MOURN THE LOSS OF-------
COMMON SENSE Obituary of the late Mr. Common Sense Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; Why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn't always fair; and Maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6 year old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, which only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their misbehaved children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or a band-aid to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 3 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing... -------------------- Sully 24' Tunnel 350 Mercruiser/12D -13P OJ- L-4 blade PYB24177M75A Hampstead NC
COMMON SENSE Obituary of the late Mr. Common Sense Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; Why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn't always fair; and Maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6 year old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, which only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their misbehaved children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or a band-aid to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 3 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing... -------------------- Sully 24' Tunnel 350 Mercruiser/12D -13P OJ- L-4 blade PYB24177M75A Hampstead NC
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