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Shoal keel
- Thread starter Dhamil6490
- Start date
I was trying to find an article that talked specifically about keel depth and it's relationship to pointing ability. No luck for my quick search and brisk reads. I don't think the depth of the keel is inherently bad at pointing. A shorter keel can have more trouble presenting a decent lateral plane and more windward slippage can result, especially when heeling. A shorter keel may also have less righting moment and thus a less efficient angle causing the boat to want to come up. This can mean the rudder is angled to counter this action and gives more resistance to forward motion. These both can affect pointing ability. However, with 500 plus pounds of ballast on a wide 17' boat, I'm guessing the Seaward is a pretty stiff little sailer.
I would like to see pictures of her under sail and close hauled.
-Will (Dragonfly)
I would like to see pictures of her under sail and close hauled.
-Will (Dragonfly)
If I can find someone who has a drone I'll work on it. Have to admit, c!ose hauled is a tall order for me.
One other thing: I thought I'd try using a topping lift this season in an effort to raise the boom along with easing the halyard and outhaul thus creating more belly in the main. Do you think that will help with speed and pointing?
No, that will induce heel and side slipping. Generally a flatter mainsail will point hight, increase halyard or Cunningham tension, increase outhaul tension up wind, down wind loosen everything.
A deep fin keel develops lift which allows the boat to point higher. Short stubby keels can not develop the same amount of lift so the boat can not point as high. A second factor is the keel's chord or foil shape. Boats that point well have deep thin keels with a good foil shape. This can be accomplished in a fin keel because of its depth the weight can be spread out over a longer distance allowing for a lighter more effective keel. A short shoal draft needs to be fat and long to achieve the same righting moment and can not be shaped into an effective foil.
There's a reason why high performance racing boats have deep thin keels with bulbs at the bottoms.
This article might be helpful.
How keel type affects performance - Yachting Monthly
James Jermain looks at the main keel types, their typical performance and the pros and cons of each
www.yachtingmonthly.com
I found that article, but don't have a subscription, so only read the introduction. I did find another piece of it, but it talked only about one type of keel.This article might be helpful.
How keel type affects performance - Yachting Monthly
James Jermain looks at the main keel types, their typical performance and the pros and cons of each
I'm willing to believe what you say, though. I would like to know how the foil shape's lift specifically improves pointing. There are a few boats, the planing hulls, that point very high, yet their foil keels seem quite minimal and there is no lift effect in the runners of an ice boat. Those guys have amazing pointing abilities.
-Will (Dragonfly)
Absolutely.
You will get the opposite of your desired affect by putting more belly in the sail. This increases the lift forces of the sail, but decreases the driving force because it takes away the directional shape. You'll heel hard and slow down. Save that technique for running with the wind.
-Will (Dragonfly)
The subscription is free.
The pointing ability of ice boats is based on apparent wind. Because ice boats have very little drag, they accelerate quickly as they accelerate the apparent wind moves forward as it moves forward the boat can point higher relative the true wind while maintaining a lower angle to the apparent wind. Making up some numbers, the true wind angle might be 25° while the apparent wind angle might be 40°. The blades provide sufficient lateral resistance to keep the boat from side slipping.
The foil shape on a keel provides lift in the same manner as an airplane wing. There is greater pressure on the downwind side of the keel than on the upwind side so the keel wants to move to weather. The same happens to the rudder, it also provides lift. Lift adds to the boats ability to point. Talk to someone who sails a keel centerboard boat. There is a significant increase in the boat's pointing ability when the centerboard is lowered.
Keels provide three forces, a righting momentum which tends to keep the boat up right, lateral resistance to keep the boat from side slipping, and lift. Lift becomes important on the wind, and not so important downwind. Downwind the keel's skinny profile reduces drag which increases speed and provides some directional stability.
Planning hulls typically plane off the wind, not on the wind. They tend to have broad flat bottoms that allow the boat to ride up over the bow wave. Keels are of little use here and reducing drag is important. Upwind the skinny deep keels or centerboards provide a lot of lift which increases the apparent wind and improves pointing.
The key to pointing high is to keep the boat flat while increasing the apparent wind speed. Hi performance boats (Open 60s, VOR boats, etc) stay flat because of a canting keel with a heavy bulb at the bottom. The bulb provides the weight and the keel is a thin foil that provides lift. The boats we sail, stay flat because of rail meat.
In general, don't use the topping lift while sailing, leave it loose. There are only a few oddball cases where a topping lift MIGHT help while sailing and that is only when the wind is very light, off the wind.
Dave, I think you have the apparent and true mixed up. Apparent wind angle will be lower than true due to adding the forward motion vector. The first point you made is the key, ice boats seem to point high but that is only because they are moving so fast that the apparent wind goes way forward. They don't point all that well relative to true wind.
Just a point of clarification, when we talk about keel "lift" we mean lateral lift, not vertical. Long slender foils are much more efficient than short stubby foils. That's why gliders have such long thin wings. At the far end of the scale there are supersonic aircraft that have short stubby wings but a LOT of power.
Deep thin keels and tall masts with high aspect ratio sails make boats go faster up wind because they are more efficient with higher lift to drag ratios.
Shoal draft keels will never be able to point as well as deep keels up wind. Take it to the extreme - no keel. That's not going to work up wind
And move the traveler to windward and ease the boom to about mid-ship.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,813
No experience with your boat. I did own a 15 ft trailer boat for 20 years.
All boats have their limits and quirks. A new sail may give you what you seek. But a new Sail is no guarantee. I looked on line and came up with Precision Sails.
www.precisionsailloft.com
they say they have a main sail pattern for the Seaward 17.
How did you get this boat? What do you want to do with it? If your current experience is the best the boat can do are you still committed to the boat? Committed means you want to throw money at the boat. As in a new sail as compared to cutting your expenses and directing your effort and money in a different direction.
All boats have their limits and quirks. A new sail may give you what you seek. But a new Sail is no guarantee. I looked on line and came up with Precision Sails.
Seaward Fox 17 Cruising Mainsail
Instant pricing on Seaward Fox 17 sails. Best Prices Online. Customize your sail cloth and options online.
www.precisionsailloft.com
they say they have a main sail pattern for the Seaward 17.
How did you get this boat? What do you want to do with it? If your current experience is the best the boat can do are you still committed to the boat? Committed means you want to throw money at the boat. As in a new sail as compared to cutting your expenses and directing your effort and money in a different direction.
Thanks for the link. I got the boat at an auction. It hadn't been sailed for 3 years and was stored outdoors under a tree! The mess was overwhelming. I wanted a boat that I could use to learn to sail. I didn't spend a lot on it. Dealing with the inability to point has been my biggest challenge. I took sailing lessons on a boat with a daggerboard. It handled like a dream. Not so with my boat. I'm thinking of naming it The Antichrist. So I'm looking for low cost solutions to get me through this season and maybe next. Then on to a bigger boat. Or at least one that behaves.No experience with your boat. I did own a 15 ft trailer boat for 20 years.
All boats have their limits and quirks. A new sail may give you what you seek. But a new Sail is no guarantee. I looked on line and came up with Precision Sails.
Seaward Fox 17 Cruising Mainsail
Instant pricing on Seaward Fox 17 sails. Best Prices Online. Customize your sail cloth and options online.
they say they have a main sail pattern for the Seaward 17.
How did you get this boat? What do you want to do with it? If your current experience is the best the boat can do are you still committed to the boat? Committed means you want to throw money at the boat. As in a new sail as compared to cutting your expenses and directing your effort and money in a different direction.
There is no doubt that a combination of improved sails and improved skills will allow your boat to sail better and closer to the wind. However, getting to sail as close to the wind as a dinghy with a daggerboard ain't going to happen. Different designs have different sailing characteristics and a beamy 17' boat with a shoal keel will not be as fast or sail as high as centerboard and dagger boat daysailers in that size range.
Enjoy your boat, sail it, learn it. This experience will help you learn what you want in your next boat. If you get a chance sail on other boat's too. The more sailing you do and the more boats you sail on the better sailor you'll be.
Spring and Summer are coming!
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,813
Oh you have caught the bug of boatitist. It is a healthy bug. Kind of like caritist.
One of the low cost ways is to find a "good" condition used sail. Maybe not the perfect design but less expensive than new sails. Bacon Sails (an online site) located in Annapolis MD may have a sail the will fit. The trade off is lower cost for less expense.
One of the low cost ways is to find a "good" condition used sail. Maybe not the perfect design but less expensive than new sails. Bacon Sails (an online site) located in Annapolis MD may have a sail the will fit. The trade off is lower cost for less expense.
I always said speak in layman’s terms with new sailors will help. Too much discussion on keels, sails etc...
First have your sails checked out before purchasing others. Second, take some photos of your boat first sideways with mast up(no sails) and from the front and back toward the mast. In addition take a photo of the related deck hardware. Post them and advise condition of sails once inspected. Tuning and rake of mast may be an issue.
As for the wing keels, forms of that have been on boats as far back as the 1800’s. Family had one on a Chesapeake Bay Schooner that I saw in a photo built back in the 1890’s.
First have your sails checked out before purchasing others. Second, take some photos of your boat first sideways with mast up(no sails) and from the front and back toward the mast. In addition take a photo of the related deck hardware. Post them and advise condition of sails once inspected. Tuning and rake of mast may be an issue.
As for the wing keels, forms of that have been on boats as far back as the 1800’s. Family had one on a Chesapeake Bay Schooner that I saw in a photo built back in the 1890’s.