Securing The Jib Sheet

Sam Salter · Jul 14, 2011

Until two seasons ago, I used the original jam cleats that came standard on my 1977 C&C 26 with my 135% genoa.
Then I bought 2 Lemar ST16's (self tailors) - night and day!
I didn't realize how difficult it had been to handle the sheets until I tried the self tailors.
I'd say the two best investments I've made on my boat are the self tailors and new sails!

Bill Roosa · Jul 15, 2011

Before we had self-tailers I would take wrapps around the winch as normal then tie a halfhitch with the tail onto the working part. Jams the winch and you can just pull the tail to release. You did need to keep an eye on it as the halfhitch would come undone in gusty weather.

OldCat · Jul 15, 2011

Bill Roosa said:
Before we had self-tailers I would take wrapps around the winch as normal then tie a halfhitch with the tail onto the working part. Jams the winch and you can just pull the tail to release. You did need to keep an eye on it as the halfhitch would come undone in gusty weather.

OC

Joe · Jul 15, 2011

Bill Roosa said:
Before we had self-tailers I would take wrapps around the winch as normal then tie a halfhitch with the tail onto the working part. Jams the winch and you can just pull the tail to release. You did need to keep an eye on it as the halfhitch would come undone in gusty weather.

Oh yeah, that's a good idea.

Couldn't afford a $5 clam cleat? heh, heh I'm thinking you meant a slipped half hitch..... that makes more sense.

sinnettc · Jul 17, 2011

A couple of comments . . .

First, regarding cam cleats for the jib. Even those can be a problem under the right conditions. I was out with our Capri 16.5 several years ago and got knocked down by a big gust. My passenger, who was working the jib, couldn't raise his arm far enough to pop it loose and hike out to keep us from going over too. At (literally) the last second, as I was deciding whether to go off the stern or onto the sail, he managed to snap it loose. If I still had that boat I'd have moved the cleats.

On our current boat (Capri 22) we have self tailing winches for the genoa and standard cabin tops with cam cleats on the aft cabin bulkhead. When the wind is up, or if I single hand, I usually cross sheet so we can stay on the high side. That usually means 1-2 wraps around the "correct" winch and then 1 or 2 on the high side. Of course that means you may need longer sheets than specified in the manual.

Alan · Jul 17, 2011

...all very true but what this all boils down to is cleating off genoa sheets is a very bad idea at best and can be down right dangerous. If you're not prepared to handle a moving sheet at all times then self tailing winches or line stoppers are a must. I can hear the groans already, sure they cost money, more than standard winches and line stoppers (clutches) also cost money. But when the time comes when someone is hurt or worse you will have to answer the nagging question in your own head, 'should I have had a better system in place ???'

cwkemp · Jul 17, 2011

Alan,
I think I agree in principle, but I single hand most of the time and feel I need to secure the genoa sheet and play the the main. I am not acquainted in practice with line clutches or self tailers, so could you explain as to a neophyte (me) how these are preferable means over cam cleats to secure the genoa sheet?
I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that I have tried to impliment "winchers". I am sending them back as I found it nearly impossible to strip the winch when I wanted to.
Thanks to all for the many points on this discussion.
Clint

Alan · Jul 18, 2011

Clint, securing the genoa sheet is not a problem releasing it is. Jam cleats and cam cleats can be exceedingly difficult to release after they load up. Self tailing winches, winchers and line clutches are designed to release easily under load.
Winchers require a little technique to work well. Hold the drum of the loaded winch with one hand and pull off the top two turns of the sheet with the other. Pull straight up on the line while releasing the line on the drum. The line will spill off in a counter clockwise spin by itself.
Line clutches are good alternative for easy to release loads. I use two of them on a double ended line to adjust my backstay using the lazy primary winch. The windward winch is always out of use so we load the backstay on that one to adjust. After adjusting the winch is returned to the lazy genoa sheet for the next tack. To release the clutch a lever is pulled to bleed off the load with very little effort. I am particularly fond of the Lewmar line clutches. They are very kind to the line and hold well.

stephen Penny · Jul 18, 2011

I use separate self tailing winches on both my jenoa and main sheets. The jenoa sheet winches are the outside ones on the cabin top and the main sheet winch is the inner one on the starboard side of the cabin top. This allows me to quickly release each or both in the event of a gust and makes it easy to tighten up the sails. An alternative for a small boat that does not require winches to tighten the sails is to use a cam cleat.

stephen Penny · Jul 18, 2011

I use separate self tailing winches on both my jenoa and main sheets. The jenoa sheet winches are the outside ones on the cabin top and the main sheet winch is the inner winch on the starboard side. This allows me to quickly release each or both in the event of a gust and makes it easy to tighten up the sails. An alternative for a small boat that does not require winching to tighten the sails, is to use a cam cleat.

OldCat · Jul 18, 2011

Alan said:
Clint, securing the genoa sheet is not a problem releasing it is. Jam cleats and cam cleats can be exceedingly difficult to release after they load up. Self tailing winches, winchers and line clutches are designed to release easily under load.
Winchers require a little technique to work well. Hold the drum of the loaded winch with one hand and pull off the top two turns of the sheet with the other. Pull straight up on the line while releasing the line on the drum. The line will spill off in a counter clockwise spin by itself.
Line clutches are good alternative for easy to release loads. I use two of them on a double ended line to adjust my backstay using the lazy primary winch. The windward winch is always out of use so we load the backstay on that one to adjust. After adjusting the winch is returned to the lazy genoa sheet for the next tack. To release the clutch a lever is pulled to bleed off the load with very little effort. I am particularly fond of the Lewmar line clutches. They are very kind to the line and hold well.

Alan, are you saying that you use line clutches to secure the head sail sheets?

My much smaller lighter boat in a land of big gusts would would have problems with that if the line kinked and jammed at the back of the clutch. It is an easily cleared jam, but on a smaller lighter boat the jam could still be

.

OC

Alan · Jul 18, 2011

OC, I'm not saying I do. I have self tailers but yes, you can use them. Of course a line can snarl and jam almost any time. Regular figure eight flaking of your lines will prevent the 'a$$hole' kink you describe. If you coil your lines in a nice loop your just begging for the kink. But as long as the line is free to run, a line clutch can hold and bleed load where a jam or cam cleat wont.

OldCat · Jul 18, 2011

Don Guillette said:
OldCat: I was talking to a Colorado shipmate today about sail trim and casually asked him if he knew where WONMOP, CO was? He said he never heard of it. I told him "no, no a lister on the sail trim forum says he sails out of there and I thinks it's somewhere west of Denver like Dillon Lake or something like that". He said he's lived in CO for 20 years and never heard of it. I just dropped the subject but then checked a Co map - no Wonmop!! Then I did a google search and the place doesn't exist but the town of WONMP does exist in Texas. I went a little further and found that this question came up in Nov, 2005 (time does fly) on the sail trim forum.

For those of you that might be interested in knowing where OldCat lives, in case you're traveling through CO and want to stop off to chug a few tinneys with him - Wonmup, CO is actually Longmont, CO - and as Paul Harvey used to say "now you know the rest of the story".

Wonmop was what my then 2 year old son called it when we moved here

. It just became a family joke. Now that he is in a High School IB program, I suspect he can do better...

OC

OldCat · Jul 18, 2011

Alan said:
OC, I'm not saying I do. I have self tailers but yes, you can use them. Of course a line can snarl and jam almost any time. Regular figure eight flaking of your lines will prevent the 'a$$hole' kink you describe. If you coil your lines in a nice loop your just begging for the kink. But as long as the line is free to run, a line clutch can hold and bleed load where a jam or cam cleat wont.

That is more care than I would have time for in gusts and shifts. Given that sometimes my weight must stay on the high side, I sometimes have trouble getting the line as neat as I should

, yeah I know, not the best... I am glad for my self-tailers for many reasons, including that they are easy for inexperienced crew.

I use a Lewmar clutch for my main halyard - because it is the only thing that I know of that will always release - and if there are black clouds about - I really try to keep that line ready to go.

Cheers,
OC

cwkemp · Jul 19, 2011

Alan,
Thanks for clarifying and also for the tips. This weekend I will remove the fairleads from my cam cleats (I guess the stop knots will hit the lead block if a sheet gets away from me), try different technique to unload the winchers, try turning the genoa sheet on the leeward winch and trim using the high side winch (ala sinnettc), and try figure eight flaking my lines. Rope clutches wouldn't be in the budget for awhile but it seems like I can improve using some combination of my existing equipment. I'm eager to experiment and see what works.
Thanks to all contributors.
Clint

thinwater · Jul 21, 2011

Why the resistance to cam cleats? They don't release accidentally if properly sized and line properly placed. Yes, I hear that a horn cleat can be quickly released, with 2 round turns and perhaps a cleat hitch; I question the truth of that, with one hand, off balance, and in the midst of a knock-down. Hopefully, you've not been there. My belief is that cam cleats are a bit of racing hardware that belongs on cruising boats, in certain places. Horn cleats have a place too, but not for sheets, not all the time.

Joe · Jul 21, 2011

cwkemp said:
Alan,
Thanks for clarifying and also for the tips. This weekend I will remove the fairleads from my cam cleats (I guess the stop knots will hit the lead block if a sheet gets away from me), try different technique to unload the winchers, try turning the genoa sheet on the leeward winch and trim using the high side winch (ala sinnettc), and try figure eight flaking my lines. Rope clutches wouldn't be in the budget for awhile but it seems like I can improve using some combination of my existing equipment. I'm eager to experiment and see what works.
Thanks to all contributors.
Clint

I would never use any kind of captive cleat or fairlead on my sheets..... because, even though you may exercise proper technique in flaking down the line or stuffing it in a sheet bag so they flow out without developing any hockles... you can never prevent it accidently happening through no fault of your own. So why risk it? What benefit do you attain? The open cam, vee, jam, horn cleats (no fairleads) and the line gripper on your self-tailers... are far safer than a captive device ... such as a cleat fairlead, or line stopper, rope clutch, etc..

As far as cam cleats go... I have never had trouble operating them... simply pull the line UP to disengage and throw off the winch or snap it Down to engage and trim while tailing it through the cleat.

That said....... if you have a full time jib trimmer you could use the captive devices safely... but what to what advantage, I don't know.

dkdoyle · Jul 21, 2011

Totally agree at least on my 26 footer about using cam cleats with no fairleads.
Use the same technique once aroynt the winch and ry it through the cam. I thought about using fairleads and quickly decided against it if you have to release in a hurry and it gets a knot your toast.

thinwater · Jul 22, 2011

I also often remove one winch turn (3 instead of 4 perhaps) so that the line will ease more smoothly in a hurry, with less chance of override.

If there is a trimmer, this is not required; they will be more proactive and will have a hand on the drum.

Securing The Jib Sheet

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