Second opinion

justjon · Jun 1, 2011

I think your to do list is reasonable. The 4hp motor may be over budget unless you "find" one? You are also going to need all the safety equipment, life jackets, flares, horns, whisles ... etc. You are not going to make any money on this boat, no one ever does....

Eric M · Jun 1, 2011

Boats in general cost a lot more as pieces than they do as boats. Before you put any time or money into this one I would make certain that you have all the pieces you need to put it together. Do you have all the standing rigging for the mast? Spreaders? Rudder and Tiller? These are a few of the big ticket items. You don't mention anything about the running rigging, halyards, jib sheets, main sheet, vang etc.
What about the trailer and where the boat will be stored?
I think your budget is optimistic, a used outboard in any sort of decent condition will consume your entire exterior budget.
As for the return on investment, well I wouldn't spend any time or money, except on a good outboard which you could always sell seperately, that you wouldn't be willing to give away later. Now I am not saying it is not a good investment if you plan to do the work, sail the boat a few years and decide if it is a hobby that is right for you.
If your whole reason to do this is to learn to sail, there are other options. Look around for a local sailing club in your area. Folks who own race boats are always looking for crew. It is a great way to learn to sail, and a great way to try out all sorts of different boats before you decide which one you want to purchase for your own.
Good Luck!

Old Skool Neil · Jun 1, 2011

I'm in total agreement with Jon. Eric too, he was typing the same time as me.
I think your budget is optimistic, it will likely be doubled. It's funny how costing a little bit more here and there adds up quickly. Rigging repairs, outboard and the mentioned required safety equipment will be heavy hitters. The good news is you got it for the right price.

As far as return on investment, nope. You'll be lucky to break even. My opinion is you have two avenues for a good outcome:

Sell the sails, sell the trailer, sell or scrap the spars, dump the rest (the financial strategy).
Repair it as planned and enjoy it yourself (my preference by far).

Best of luck.

kenn · Jun 1, 2011

Is this boat an investment... financially, no. It all depends on what's needed, the market, and what your time is worth. Even so, complete 1975ish Ensenada 20's are selling for like $3k. If you value your labour/time highly, or have alot of cash, then you'd be better off just buying a ready-to-sail boat.

But it is an 'investment' into sailing and cruising, and gaining first-hand experience in boat ownership and maintenance. If you're young and keen, lots of time and enthusiasm but cash-strapped, this boat could be a bargoon.

In your case, my decision would be based on the minimum cost/work required to actually sail. So I would build two lists:

To get sailing, you need:
- good hull
- all standing rigging
- all running rigging
- sails
- 4-6 HP engine, if required in your sailing area
- safety equipment

I'd say if you can achieve all the above for under $1000, it's a good deal. If you've got near complete rigging, and can tackle any repairs yourself, and score a great deal on a decent engine, it would be maybe $600 or less... a great deal!

The second list would be interior work. Unless the interior has important structural elements that must be fixed to sail, I would simply gut & pressure-wash the interior as you suggest, start sailing ASAP, and add cabinetry, electrics, etc as time and money allow.

Our 19' boat was complete when we bought her, and wasn't as badly off as yours, but was still a bit rough... and we've been sailing her AND slowly fixing her up, and going into season #5 she's close to great. You've got a great size to start with; small boats have small problems, easy to learn on, yet she's still big enough to do weekends or the occasional week's cruise in.

Alan · Jun 1, 2011

Short answer: No
Owning a sailboat is almost always a net financial loss. The gain is in the sailing which has no price equivalent.
Bottom line: If you don't love it and want to sail it, save your money - sailing isn't for you.

OldCat · Jun 1, 2011

Just a couple of added thoughts to the good stuff you already have:

You don't *have* to have a 4hp OB for a 20' boat - they are nice because that is generally the size that gets you reverse - but the 2.5-3.5 ones will get you home and into the slip or on the trailer. It is a bit of a PIA - but you just rotate the motor around to reverse - IF you have prop clearance to the rudder and hull. Also, you should be able to paddle a 20 footer out of a slip in light winds. 2.5hp might save a few bucks.

As for safety equipment - it is a cost to you - but not really a cost of the boat. Most of it can stay with you when you move up.

OC

berner73 · Jun 1, 2011

Getting into sailing is a great investment, but a lousy return on your money. In my limited experience, Neil is correct that it will probably cost you 2X what you think. We bought a boat in good condition 2 seasons ago and we expected to spend the purchase price to get it where we wanted. Most of the work we've done ourselves. One thing to consider is access to tools. We already had a shop full from owning/updating our home.

Have you had a chance to see what you could buy for what your willing to spend to fix this one up? You may be able to get on the water tomorrow in a ready to go vessel with a little research. Depends what you want really. You will learn a lot in repairing the Ensenada and that's knowledge that you'll always have. We enjoy working on the boat almost as much as sailing her, but if I had to choose, I'd be on the water.

Good luck and hope it works out for you.

Old Skool Neil · Jun 1, 2011

dgheat said:
-I have all standing rigging. I have no running rigging.

Here's a great example of what I was talking about. Using Catalina 22 pricing as an example (the Catalina 22 rig is very similar to yours and pricing for it can be found just about anywhere), Cajun Ropes is selling a full set of Catalina 22 running rigging on eBay for $524, shipping included. Even if you're a skilled scrounger and can find something similar at half the price, you're still looking at $260 out of your $400 exterior budget consumed by the rigging.

Doesn't leave much for everything else. I'm not saying you shouldn't move forward, just don't be surprised.

BobM · Jun 1, 2011

From what I have seen, small sailboats typically sell for what their sails, trailer and outboard are worth. So if you are starting with a trailer and new sails you are ahead of the game. However, I doubt you can get it together by July and, as others have said, it will cost more than you think once you start shopping for all the little stuff.

BobM · Jun 1, 2011

Just watched your videos. Most of the damaged wood doesn't seem structural. I'd advise you to focus on things that will get you sailing and enjoying the boat. I too, and others after me, hoped to "restore" my old Lancer 25, but the true value in that $1000 boat was that NOBODY was having more fun per dollar. Skip the interior. Fix what you need to get her in the water and try sailing. My 2c.

caguy · Jun 1, 2011

It depends on what you want. If it's that particular boat then you have a start. I sense that the model is not as important as just getting out there on a safe and legal boat.
There are a lot of nice boats that are newer and in sailable condition out there for less than you plan on investing in this one. This is especially true with this economy and in the south east. As an example was the Mac 25 that recently sold here on the west coast for $700. All it needed was a motor. The trailer new sails and general condition made it a really good buy, they are out there. This one came with a spinnaker pole ~$200 and I assume a spinnaker ~$300. Not to mention the race sails. He has had it less than a week and has had it out in the water 3 times.
On the other hand if you are handy and enjoy crafting then refurbishing a project may be for you. The main thing is to make sure that you don't have to buy expensive items, IE blocks etc. Running rigging is not expensive if you can find a cheap source. We have a local yacht salvage dealer who sells very reasonably. IE Kevlar rope 3/8 for $ .49 a foot. I buy my tinned wire by the pound from an electrical scrap yard.
As far as the work goes, you have the right idea. A jet wash inside and out will transform what looks like a hopeless cause into something that resembles a doable project in just a couple of hours. I wouldn't bother to pull the wood out, it's already been water damaged and a little more water won't hurt. When your done just dry it off as best you can and let it air dry for a few days. Head liners can all be done over time as well as cushions.
I don't see why you can't have it in the water by 7/4 especially if you have the free time to put into it.
As mentioned earlier prioritize your projects starting with safety.
Your project looks a lot like my Luger 30 project.

http://frankmendez.web.officelive.com/Luger.aspx

http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm84/xcaguyx/?action=organize

Good luck and keep the faith.

rgranger · Jun 2, 2011

DG

You have gotten a lot of good advice already. One variable that is left out of the question is... "How much fun will you have RESTORING the boat?" I am an old boat junky and have gone through two MacGregor V21, a Coronado 23' & 25' and now own a MacGregor V222. I happen to LIKE fixing them up and working on them. But the $ truth is this... you could get $1000 for a set of used "new" sails and $500 for the trailer and $150 for the mast and another $80 for the boom and maybe $70 for the winches .... well you get the idea... I just helped a friend part out an old Macgregor V21 and he is well over $2000 and still has a few odds and ends to put on CraigsList and eBay. And you could find a used boat, in sail away condition, on a trailer with a working outboard for $2500 or less ( I found mine for $800). Of course you would lose the fun of fixing this one up and your timing is off. The time to sell is now but the time to buy is September/October.

Now if you plan on fixing this one up, here is some advice on going on the cheap. Buy your running rigging (ropes) at Lowes, Home Depot or Northern Tool. You can get decent blocks (pulleys) that will last several seasons for a fraction of the price if you can find a chandler that serves working boats (shrimp boats or lobster etc.). These are usually brass sheaved with heavy galvanized steel flanges. If you can't find that kind of chandler, then try Tractor Supply or Norther Tool. The blocks are not as good as Harken etc. but will last you 5 years or so for a fraction of the cost.

Rustoleum is a decent paint for the exterior and I've had my boats looking good for many seasons. And you can always find an exact match for touch-ups. A good automotive paint also works well. I admit that on my last boat I purchased a marine based paint and it is a good paint but a decent automotive paint has served me well in the past and the bottom of my current boat is painted with Rustoleum.

You can also get decent wire rope (standing rigging) at tractor supply or Lowes etc. It is galvanized steel instead of stainless but it costs only 10% and will last 5 years or more. So on a strict cost analysis, the stainless would have to last 50 years to be cost effective. You can also find the bails and wire clamps to make your own rigging. Northern Tool sells stainless turnbuckles and shackles etc for a lot less than Harken, West Marine etc. You can also get stainless wire rope at Northern Tool for a bargain (likewise or running rigging).

Have fun

r

Old Skool Neil · Jun 2, 2011

True, everything granger mentions will get you out on the water cheaply but keep in mind that it won't enhance the value of the boat one nickel (return on investment was one of your original questions) and you'll be redoing every bit of it at some point in the very near future.

This discussion is really good though. There are certainly varying approaches and you're getting all sides of the issue with supporting rationale. Ultimately the decision is yours.

Amos Cape · Jun 2, 2011

I can tell you first hand the cost can get high on a restoring a good old sailboat your self. But I will say that I know The King inside and out. I'm very please with the end results and have enjoyed it a lot and will have lots more memories.

Here is a link to my photos. There is one of the before and after.

http://forums.s2.sailboatowners.com/member.php?u=94097

Joe Diver · Jun 2, 2011

Take a balanced approach....spend good money on quality stuff where you need it...like the standing rigging....and get a bargain where you don't, like interior restoration.

I use that approach for my C25...buy good stuff at West Marine where I need it...and then use Walmart, Academy and Home Depot where I don't.

jepomer · Jun 4, 2011

A friend of mine acquired an Ensenada 20 three years ago - $1200 with sails, rigging, and trailer. The interior was not much better than yours. He stripped out the inside and completely rebuilt the interior with new marine grade plywood. His wife made new cushions. His uncle gave him a 9 HP outboard. He enjoyed the project immensely. He is continuing with projects on this boat today but he did get it in the water relatively soon after acquiring it. The interior looks great. He and his wife have used it for several week-long cruising vacations.

So in short, only you can decide the value of your money, time, and effort invested into an older boat. Both my friend and I enjoy the restoration as much as we do sailing.

My advice - do enough initially to make it safe on the water. Go slow. Continue the projects to make it "pretty" as time and finances allow.

If you are a hands-on repair type person, you will gain much knowledge and joy. If you are not such a person, you will curse every minute and penny you spend.

Ross · Jun 4, 2011

You don't HAVE to put and engine on it. The boat is small enough for oars. If the wind fails when you are far from home you can fish until it starts blowing again. The value of your repairs will depend on your craftmanship. You can start sailing for less than your budget but you could have a hard time holding the line on cost if you fall in love with her. Remember once you have named it it is yours.