Seaward 24 vs Watkins 25

[jamieFL]

A few weeks ago I posted asking opinions on the O'Day 25 and overwhelmingly got the advice to look for a better boat.

Today, I looked at a real nice Watkins 25 shoal draft with Yanmar diesel and a really nice Seaward 24 with an outboard. I like them both. My wife is partial to the Seaward. Overall, they are both in great shape, but the Seaward is nicer and a little more expensive.

Seaward Pros
Easier to trailer
Easier to step mast
Mechanically simpler (outboard, hank on headsail)
New running and standing rigging

Seaward Cons
Center board stuck up
Smaller, less storage, much simpler gally

Watkins Pros
Yanmar diesel
Slightly larger, more room, slightly better gally

Watkins Cons
Not as easy to trailer (heavier and hull shape)
Heavier mast, roller furling, harder to trailer
Mechanically more complex (inboard, roller furling)
Oily bilge

I made an offer on the Seaward, contingent on an inspection of the centerboard. The owner countered with sale as is, no contingencies. He said it sails perfectly fine with it up and it might just be barnicals.

He suggested having a diver examine it and I asked for help arranging one. Did I mention the boats are both 3 hours away.

The diesel, although I put it in the positive colum, I'm a little concerned. It started right up and I arrived at the boat before the owner did, so I know he didn't warm it up. When the boat was opened up, it smelled like diesel inside, and the bilge had a lot of oil floating in it.

I will need to purchase a trailer for either and finding one for the Seaward will be a lot easier, maybe. I've been told it has a flat bottom. I'm looking at an aluminum dual axel powerboat trailer and raising the bunks.

I'd really appreciate a few opinions. I'm sure I've not considered everything.

 

[Stu Jackson]

For the boat with the diesel engine, is there room to service the stuffing box? If not, ask yourself whether the PO ever did or not. It's important to avoid a gouge in the shaft at the box,

Either way, good luck, both sound nice.

If you haven't yet, do a search on boating forums for "Project Boat." If you're willing to put the sweat equity into her, then it could turn out well. Match your abilities to the tasks at hand for each and see which fits with what you can do with the time & $$ available to you. First cost isn't everything.

 

[DAVA390]

Don't get a powerboat trailer, most have axles rearward, most sailboat trailers have axles centered under the boat.

 

[dlochner]

I will need to purchase a trailer for either and finding one for the Seaward will be a lot easier, maybe. I've been told it has a flat bottom. I'm looking at an aluminum dual axel powerboat trailer and raising the bunks.

Sailboats need to rest on their keels, that is the weight of the boat sits on the keel with the bunks or stands stabilizing the boat. Because the greatest concentration of weight in a sailboat is in the keel, the axles need to be under the keel or the tongue weight will be too high. Powerboat weight is concentrated in the aft end because of the engines, the axles and major support needs to be under the engines.

So, don't buy a powerboat trailer for a sail boat. Depending on the height of the boat out of water, it may be possible to find a flat bed trailer and weld jack stands or a cradle on it.

 

[jamieFL]

@Stu Jackson,

I didn't know what a stuffing box was until you mentioned it. I've had i/o's and stern drives, but never an inboard.

There is a long removable pannel in the port quarter birth and also access through the starboard lazarette.

I read up on it and will have to ask, and will have to be one of the things inspected. He said that he had the engine serviced once a year.

The Watkins has the 8hp single cylinder Yanmar. It started right up and ran at idle for about half hour while I looked the boat over. I examined it through the hatch under the companionway and the quarter birth and it didn't look corroded like I've seen on other boats.

The engine is my main concern on this boat. The bilge was fairly oily and I'm not familiar with inboards because I've never had one.

 

[JRT]

I've followed you path to ownership from the 25. I would not say an O'day 25 ia a bad first boat justthe o es you seemed to focus on were especially since they needed trailers which seems to be your big requirement.

I'd say you know the diesal is not good based on condition and issues. I'd also pass on the other as if the owner has no trailer and says the centerboard doesn't matter I can say that wasn't true on my O'day 25. I want a functional well cared for boat.

This just came up, pretty good deal and I think you will have no work.
https://chattanooga.craigslist.org/boa/d/catalina-22-sailboat-new/6737836379.html

 

[cb32863]

The boat will not point very well with the center board up, that's the point of it. I would say to keep looking as the more you look, the more you learn. Having to retro-fit a trailer is probably going to be a pain. Yes, all boats can be fixed but there is the question..... Do you want to sail or do you want to work on a boat? And yes, all boats eventually need stuff done but, the less the better as the point is to go sailing.

 

[jamieFL]

Thanks for all the advice on trailers. I'm aware that it will need to be modified. I've found a few aluminum and galvanized trailers in the 1500 to 2000 range. I'm looking for one with working brakes.

I've not found any sailboat trailers that weren't ready to fall apart.

If anyone knows a trailer manufacturer in Florida that I can get a quote for a new trailer, let me know... But I expect the price will start at 4500.

 

[JRT]

I have a friend at work having a trailer made in Maryland and it is will into the $4500+ for an AMC 22' boat.

I saw this one listed, looks interesting:
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/seaward-24-cruiser-3473015/

I looked at the boat in the link below and it is very nice and the owner is a true sailor with knowledge and skills that show in the work and maintenance on this boat. In addition it is freshwater boat, trailer is perfect and over 6" of head room and a very nice diesel motor. My only issue is the main is original, looks ok, but I'd buy a new one to match the newish Jib. I decided to pass on it as I figured out what we really want next and s nice as this is it isn't really the direction in sailing I've determined to go with our family. This boat would be ready to trailer back to FL and needs nothing to enjoy it right now.

https://nashville.craigslist.org/boa/d/oday-272-le-sailboat-with/6703491136.html

 

[FastOlson]

Survey the Watkins very very carefully.
Back in the day a friend of mine was selling small boats and took on a new Watkins 27 to try it out and see if he wanted a franchise. He showed me where the inner layer of fiberglass was not wet out and was partly loose under much of the cockpit. Whole boat lacked QC. The glass work and construction, in general, was worse than another late-70's cheapie brand whose name shall not be mentioned.

He never tried another. I was flooring some small boats for him and this was no way a product to take on.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Look at Road king sailboat trailers. Although there is a Florida plant, contact Phyllis or Larry at the Asheville NC plant who could better answer your questions. I think Ron Frisosky had measured for that boat

When looking at usd boats look at the motor compartment. If kept clean well, that generally is a good sign how a boat was maintained

 

[jamieFL]

Look at Road king sailboat trailers. Although there is a Florida plant, contact Phyllis or Larry at the Asheville NC plant who could better answer your questions. I think Ron Frisosky had measured for that boat

When looking at usd boats look at the motor compartment. If kept clean well, that generally is a good sign how a boat was maintained

Dave,

I will definitely look into Road King Trailers. Befor refitting a powerboat trailer, I need to see what a custom built one will cost.

Jamie

 

[Kings Gambit]

In my opinion, Seawards are quality boats, and Watkins’ basically are not by comparison. Watkins are clumsy looking, slow, and not that good a sailor. Seawards are speciality designs for trailering and use in shoal waters, hence the flat bottom and narrower beam.

 

[jamieFL]

I made an offer on the Seaward, contingent on the owner getting the centerboard down, since he kept implying that it was probably only barnacles. He accepted my price, but said he would only sell the boat as is, so we parted ways.

I contacted the owner of the Watkins and we talked for a long time. We talked about his maitenance schedule and I am confident the engine has been maintained. The sails are brand new and the running and standing rigging are both in great shape. The deck is solid. Gel coat is in good shape. There are water marks inside the boat by the port and starboard chain plates, but it looks old, and when I inspected the deck around the chain plates, it was already sealed up. The mast and all deck hardware were in great shape and solidly mounted.

The engine and engine compartment were mostly clean. It showed its age. The motor mounts and bolts were good. The engine ran good at idle the other day and I know it was a cold start. My only concern is the oily bilge.

We negotiated a price, which was much less than the offer on the Seaward. The offer is contingent on an inspection and demo sail. I can also sublet his boat slip for a reasonable fee until I find a trailer.

I'd appreciate advice on my inspection. My weak knowledge is the diesel inboard since I've never had one.

I'd also appreciate trailer advice if you have experience having one built, or modified.

Jamie

 

[Kings Gambit]

I’d probably have kept working with the Seaward owner until making a deal. Good luck on your purchase!!

 

[jamieFL]

I’d probably have kept working with the Seaward owner until making a deal. Good luck on your purchase!!

The only way to buy the Seaward was to agree to an as-is sale. Unfortunately he also wanted a quick sale which wouldn't allow a proper inspection, nor time to find a trailer.

I made the best decision, believe me. The Watson is in really great condition, the sale is contingent on inspection, and the owner is willing to work with me.

I had two concerns about the Watson originally.

1. It is large and heavy, and I didn't know what the bottom looked like... I found out it is a similar hull as the Columbia and Commodore, which were designed to trailer.

2. I have had no experience with diesel or inboard engines. The oily bilge concerned me, and still does, but the long conversation I had with the owner lessened some of those concerns.

Let's face it. When you have a Budweiser budget, and are shopping for a 30 year old boat, condition and how well a boat has been taken care of is much more important than buying a boat strictly on its name.

The Seaward has a serious problem, maybe, and the owner was unwilling to work with me. Don't get me wrong. The owner was a real nice guy, and I don't think he was lying to me or trying to hide anything, but I am not going to risk it.

The Watson's diesel may have an oil leak, it may not... but the owner is willing to let me inspect it. What would you do?

 

[dlochner]

The Watson's diesel may have an oil leak, it may not... but the owner is willing to let me inspect it. What would you do?

It is pretty easy to get oil in the bilge through very benign actions. And very difficult to get rid of it all!

On many diesels, it is virtually impossible to change the oil filter without dumping some oil, same for the fuel filters. Depending on where the oil filter is located, it is nearly impossible to adequately clean any spill and that oil eventually wanders all over the bilge.

The oily bilge may also be diesel. Again there are benign ways of getting diesel in the bilge. The 2 that come to mind are overflow from bleeding the diesel lines and a broken fuel line. A couple of years ago a fuel line broke on my diesel and dumped 5+ gallons of fuel in the bilge. I'm still trying get it all cleaned up.

Depending on the purchase price, you may want to hire a surveyor to inspect it. A decent survey will probably cost between $500 and $1K. At some price point that amount just doesn't make sense. Certainly not on one of TomY's dollar boats.

 

[sesmith]

Since you said it smelled like diesel, I'd look for a diesel leak first. A common place for leaks would be the banjo fittings on the fuel lines. It's a shaky little engine and mine have shaked themselves loose before. If it's an oil leak, one common problem, especially on a salt water boat, is the water pump developing a slight leak. The saltwater drips on the oil lines directly below, causing them to corrode and eventually leak. The water pump can usually be rebuilt, and the oil lines replaced but they aren't cheap. The single cylinder yanmar is a pretty dependable little engine.

 

[heritage]

Do a very thorough check of the diesel tank for leaks. That includes the fill hose and the injector return line. Could be were the smell is coming from.

 

[deltaten]

I'd recommend looking up the Watkins group on yahoogroups. John has all the specs and history on his separate Watkins page.
Manufacturers aside, on one hand you have.....
A 24' boat with (just about) unknown everything and an owner that is unwilling to bend at all
VS
A 25' boat with solid decks, New sails, decent diesel and an owner willing to work with you?
No contest!

Granted, my bias might be showing; but despite my 27 being a project boat( aren't they all?), I sail when I want to with no worries. They were built and marketed as coastal/ICW cruisers, not racing hulls.
Depends on what you want to do with it
Regards,
Paul