Seat belts, motorcycle helmets... now PFDs?

[George Smith]

The Thinking Folks Want To Know.....

"According to Capt. Scott Evans of the Coast Guard, they estimate that 85% of boating fatalities due to drownings occur on vessels under 21 feet where the boater was not wearing a life jacket."What percent of the boats we use are under 21 feet long?Why propose laws based on estimates?Do you trust the "government" to use honest statistics when proposing any law that gives them more control over us?Just food for thought.George

 

[Tom S]

Russel, that story and that BS drives me crazy.

I **Really** have to laugh at those numbskull environmental police. Now there is a group of bureaucrats **wasting** our tax payers money. Heck you should have just shoved your 8 y/o directly into the water. There is no law in Massachusets mandating swimmers wear PFD's is there ? ( ...lol) Then when your 8 y/o comes out of the water put on the PFD and then look straight in the eye of those environ 'psuedo' police and ask them if this is ridiculous or not.I doubt the Coast Guard would have given you a hard timeSee how LUDICROUS this has all become.Ask the "rent-a-cop" (oops enviro cop) these questions 1) Are you **sure** children must wear pfd in an enclosed cabin ? 2) Are you **sure** moored and anchored boats don't require that children wear PFD's...only boats underway. (The federal and Connecticut state laws are written such that enclosed cabins or boats not underway are not required to have children wear PFD's.)When he says yes (because we know thier ego's are bigger then their heads) then whip out a copy of this (You might want to have a copy of this on board the next time you are in Massachusett waters.)http://www.state.ma.us/dfwele/dle/323CMR20.pdfIts a copy of the Massachusets regulations and point him to section 2.07 (Operation) and then to subsection 14 (PFD-Children)"Any person under 12 years of age, aboard and above deck on any vessel underway on the waters of the Commonwealth shall at all times wear a CG approved PFD"Remind him that it says "above deck" and "vessel underway". Not moored nor at any time below decks.God I wish I was there and that was my boat, I would challenge that Barney Fife and ask what training he took.....this sort of abuse REALLY pisses me off !!(ps. as a subnote there is a section from 2001 pertaining to Webster Lake in Mass that does mandate PFD for children at all times, but this is clearly not the case for Russell or other boaters in Mass -- fyi have fun reading the regulations http://www.state.ma.us/dfwele/dle/dle_toc.htm)

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Yep, under 21 feet but lets not forget ALCOHOL.

And Tom, I would love to have been there with you. Teamwork!

 

[BOB BAILOR]

95 DEGREES

FRIENDS, I CAN HARDLY WAIT TO PUT ON A COOLING, COMFORTABLE LIFE PRESERVER ON A HOT SUMMER DAY. I THINK NOT! I BELIEVE A GIANT BUBBLE SHOULD BE PUT ON ALL AMERICANS SO WE WILL NEVER GET HURT. IN THIS WAY, ALL PEOPLE SHALL LIVE FOREVER WITHOUT ANY INJURIES OR SICKNESS. THEN, WE COULD READ STERILED BOOKS ON HOW PEOPLE LIVED IN THE OLD DAYS AND HAD FUN! BAILOR THE SAILOR

 

[fred]

genetic selection

nm

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Bob, that's how my mother thinks. Maybe that's

what this is all about,,, Ok, you can stop shouting now.

 

[Don]

The pursuit of happiness in a PFD?

Land of the free? Home of the brave?Not any more!! Where will it all end?Why dont they just ban the boats they are worried about now and get it all over with.

 

[Tom]

Mandate swimming ability

Being able to swim is more important than a life jacket. A stupid stumble of a dock is usually just a laughing matter when you know how to swim. One of the first thing that I did with my children was teach them how to swim. You never know when they will end up in the water. A 5 year old that goes over to a friend's house and ends up in the pool could be dead or come home laughing about how he fell into the pool. As some have mentioned falling off a dock is possible. If everyone was required to know how to swim drowing deaths would be reduced. I knew a woman who went whitewater rafting and couldn't swim!!!! A guy and his brother that lived in the neighborhood went canoeing in a lake. We are talking summertime warm water. they turned over and the brother drowned!!!! 15' from shore!!! Sure a life jacket would have saved him. But being able to swim would have been just as effective.  They need to pass a law that no child can go past the 3rd grade until they learn to swim... Even better the ability to swim should be a requirement for entering kindergarten... I hate laws dealing with personal behavior. But since most drowning involves children under 5 why are they worried about adults on sailboats???? While they are saving children from drowning they should also protect them from second hand smoke. How about a law declaring smoking around a child as child abuse. Since childhod diabetes is a epidemic maybe a law making it a felony to give kids sugared drinks... mandate exercise.... that would save lives...

 

[Robert R Wolfe]

Sinker or a Swimmer?

Why do we need government legislation to make us use common sense. All it takes is just a simple question, "Do you know how to swim?" It should be up to the owner/operator to make that determination, not the government.

 

[Richard]

In favour of PFD's

My wife is a Greif Counsellor and has two clients that now are single parents because Dad did not wear a PFD while boating. These families lost not only the Dad/Husband but also their passion for the wwater as it was virtually impossible to continue boating after the accidents.PFD's are becoming increasingly workable given the newer technology. With a mandatory wearing policy (law) manufacturers would be encouraged (profit potential) to use newer and newer technology to make the next generation of PFD even more confortable, etc.I wear one and no one is allowed on ApresSki without one.Just my opinion.regards,Richard

 

[Scott]

I'll die anyway

As a solo sailor of many miles and many hours in 48 to 55 degree waters, I just want to point out that the life jacket will probably only serve to make it easier to find my body after hypothermia takes me out.

 

[Capt. Marc]

I'm not an economist, but

I took Macro Eco once... We could save a lot of lives if we mandated seatbelts, airbags and oh yeah!!! Lower all speed imits to 5 MPH. NO one would get hurt when we manage to collide. Of course it would take a lot longer for goods to get to market and I would have to leave for work about 3 hours earlier..."If it saves one life..."This was an example my Prof used.Marc

 

[Don]

No PFD at your own risk!

Save on insurance and legislation at the same time. Do not require PFDs, but if you drown without one, no insurance will be paid out!

 

[autigr]

You're right Bob - too dang hot!!!

I agree with you Bob about wearing a PFD when it's 95 outside. Most of our sailing is done on central South Carolina lakes, often in very light wind, high humidity, and very warm temps. In fact, I can honestly say that the boat gets more use as a floating swim platform than it does as a vessel under way (sail or motor). Summer temps are barely tolerable wearing a swimsuit and sunglasses alone and I'm still in the water about every 30 minutes. Face it - no matter how you style the PFD anything with enough boyancy to keep me afloat is also going to have a high insulating factor. What good is the boat if it's hotter to go out on the water than it is to stay home and play under the damn lawn sprinkler???

 

[u. e. chapa]

sensible, logical, practicable...

i think that PFDs should be mandatory for those sailing/boating alone, if any of the crew is not a swimmer, if the craft (regardless of length) is sailing/motoring at night, and also if the craft is less than 22-feet (loa) regardless of time of day it is sailing/motoring.safety pays, on/off the water folks.

 

[Stephen Fierro]

Facts

Finally some good solid facts. Thank you Tom S. I just finished a law and economics class this semester. And we debated the fairness and efficiency of laws. I definitely could see the life insurance industry pushing for this. They stand to gain the most money. And if life jackets have to be worn at all times, I could see sales in the higher end more comfortable life jackets to go up and make people a lot of money. The way we looked at it in class was to weigh the cost to the benefit. The cost of this law is not to the insurance company but to us, even though they receive a positive externality from it. I was curious as to how much this government agency values a life at. The range for different government agencies is between 5 and 12 million depending on the agency. And how many live do they expect to save. Whenever you start legislating something it can be a slippery slope, but those sometimes it's necessary. I wonder how many lives do they think this new law will save. 681 fatalities seems low as compared to how many boaters are in the US. If you cut that number in half, (people are still not going to wear them and die even with the law), that is 340 lives at 8 million per life which equals a benefit to society of roughly 2.7 billion. That is probably pushing close to the cost. That’s just my opinion. I don't mind new laws I just believe they should be put under a microscope first.

 

[Ron]

More Government Control

I have ridden motorcycles for nearly 30 years. I belong to five organizations that are for Freedom of Choice. When I'm not forced to, I don't wear a helmet. I can, from experience, say when you're not protected, you are more careful. Also, in spite of lies by the insurance industry, the death rate goes down in states that don't have helmet laws.As far as forced life jackets? I believe the government should trust us to be at least as intellegent as they are. Let us take responsibility for ourselves. I have life jackets on my boat for each person there. If there are children, I do require they wear jackets. If the weather gets bad, I require everybody get into them. If there's not a specific need for them, they could increase potential danger to a person by restricting their movement. Hmmm, if someone got wrapped up in a life jacket at the wrong time and got injured or worse, considering today's society, could they sue to Coast Guard?To paraphrase a motorcyclist slogan: LET THOSE WHO BOAT DECIDE.

 

[Sam Conant]

PFDs Required

I have mixed thoughts. Here, in Vermont, we are reading about a court hearing resulting from the drowning deaths of two children (siblings)that occurred last July 4th trapped in the rigging of an overturned McGregor. They were wearing PFD's, I'm told.I believe anyone sailing in rough seas and high, stormy winds should always wear PFD's, and have a trailing line which can also have a light attached when sailing at night.I'd like to see more incidents of law enforcement to deal with inappropriate watercraft movements and alcohol/drug-related behavior ... which might help mitigate against the required use of PFD's.I believe it is fundamentally irresponsible for any sailor to not insist that anyone sailing aboard at any time not be required to have demonstrated competent swimming and in-the-water safety management skills. Finally, I do not believe anyone should be skippering any watercraft unless s/he is competent at aiding and assisting persons overboard in a safe manner.

 

[Andy M.]

Should not be required

I am opposed to mandatory pfd laws for the same reason I am opposed to seat belt laws and helmet laws.The government should not be in the business of protective ourselves from ourselves. If I choose not to wear a PFD, the only person I potentially harm is myself.I believe in and do wear a seat belt at all times in my car, and I wear a PFD when conditions merit it, but that should be my choice, not big brothers.Andy M.

 

[Ron]

B Noble, how bright are you?

We've both been riding motorcycles for about the same time so we're just two opposing opinions. Since you feel you need for the government to protect you from yourself, do you wear your helmet while in your car? Does your wife / children wear helmets while in your car? The number one cause of death in car accidents is head injury. Protect yourself - or the government will. I guess when they come out with inflatable vests (airbags) for motorcyclists, you'll let the government make you wear one of those too.