Scared of heeling...help?

[nick8481]

Reef Reef

I reef my main when ever the wind pickup or its hard to handle the boat because of heeling and you will be very surprised how fast and easy the boat will sail.Most people that come on the boat when heeling don't like the heeling and will ask how far does it go over,and I will say not to worry but they want a life jacket. I also miss the fun on my hobie 18 but love my bigger keel boat,hunter 290. nick

 

[Sanders LaMont]

A few simple steps might help

I understand exactly what you are going through, as I scared the dickens out of my daughter when she was little, when we caught a big puff and trhe boat heeled way over, and she still avoids even big sailboats because the heel makes her so uncomfortable.A couple of things will help:-- Avoid bad weather, strong winds. At least until you become accustomed to this boat in all conditions, plan your sailing around better weather.-- Reef early. If the wind is high, reef before you leave the dock. You can always shake it out later.-- Ease the sheets on all sails a bit at a time, and watch the boat come up straighter and handle better.-- If caught in unexpected wind, dump the main till it luffs, and ease the jib.-- if you have a big job (genoa), roll it in or drop it, or change to a smaller jib.Mostly, you just need experience at the helm of your boat. As you get time at the helm, your confidence in the boat's safety will go up rapidly. Boats almost always can take more than the people at the helm.Most sailboats are more efficient -- faster -- when they are not heeled far over. I have friends who love to bury the rail, because they feel like they are going faster, but if you show them the knotmeter with the boat depowered a bit, they learn quickly that wet and wild does not always mean faster.Fair, and mild, winds,Sanders

 

[Scott]

Your fear on a keelboat is irrational

I'm not going to coddle you like the others. Your fear may be of hypothermia, not capsizing.Also, maybe your fear is that your common sense may be lacking. If I have the story correct, you went out in a boat that just begs to capsize WITHOUT wearing a wetsuit in March! I'm assuming that you were on a lake in a northern climate and the ice may have been out for just a few weeks by then. You have no excuse for your lack of judgement in that regard. All too frequently, we hear stories of people drowning in the early spring after capsizing a boat. All too frequently people assume it is because the victims were poor swimmers. The reality is that hypothermia is the killer.In just minutes, cold water will make you too weak to do anything, as you experienced. If another boater hadn't been around to help you out, you might easily have floated in your life jacket like a bobber, unable to do anything except wait for hypothermia to slowly kill you. If I'm off base because the water wasn't as cold as I assume,then I'm sorry for coming down too hard on you.Even though a Hobie 16 is an easy boat to capsize, it is not an easy boat to get righted. In my experience, it takes two adult size people to coax the mast and sail out of the water on the windward side and then you have to react like a cat to catch the windward hull before it flips again. Two or three trys in hypothermic conditions may be all you get before your strength is gone.All the other advise and encouragement is right on the mark. Maybe you are just not identifying your fear in the right perspective.Like Nick, I miss my Hobie 16 and I wish I never sold it! A wetsuit should be standard equipment, though!

 

[Joe]

common sense lacking?

Sorry scott, but you're not Dr. Phil. Be careful with the psychoanalyis, my friend.

 

[Franklin]

Scott....

Your blasting the wrong person. It wasn't his/her boat and if I'm not mistaken, it was his/her first time out, so how is he/she suppose to know that the boat capsizes easily. I bet he/she was under the impression that he/she wouldn't be in the water when he/she went out with the boat owner. The boat owner should have known better but he didn't.Lets face it, when something bad happens to oneself, it takes a long time and a lot of experience for that fear to be overcome. If it's a real phobia not based on a previous experience, then that fear will never go away. If you work on it, you can make it livable, but once you stop working on it, it will come back just as strong. Example: My sister always had a great fear of snakes. She spent about 4 months in the jungles of Africa and snakes there are a every day occurence. She would step on them nightly. She was able to temporarily overcome her phobia. When we went to the Zoo last year, she wouldn't even go in with me into the reptile section because her phobia is back at full strength now. She will not admit it, but it is.Now a fear based on an experience can be overriden when you realize that after many more attempts, that one time was not how it usually is and also you develop a confidence in your skill to not let it happen again and of course, you know what to do next time if it does.I used to be very worried when I sailed that I wouldn't react fast enough to a gust and would capsize. I sailed for two years like that on my old boat and rightfully so....it was a draw keel. When I got my new boat, I still worried about it until I was told that it was almost impossible to capsize because of wind. Now I don't worry about the rail in the water with the boat on Autopilot (my old boat I had the rail in the water a lot but I also had all the controls in/at my hands).

 

[BobW]

Franklin, you might want to sit down....

I agree with you! *5Oday 28, I understand your fear - I have it too.... a shrink would probably take me back to dinghy sailing on Kerr Reservoir in Va/NC at age 12 or so.... capsized and was terrified that the boat would get dragged into the turbines at the dam.... which was about 15 or 20 miles away!Bob, I understand all the physics (well, not all of them, but enough [to go along with staying at a Holiday Inn Express a few years ago]) so I KNOW that my fear is irrational.Scott, I sail Windy Alley with wet suits and an inflated dinghy, so my fear isn't hypothermia, trust me!I also have 2 radios, lots of flares, auto-inflating life jacket/harnesses & jacklines, etc. so it isn't grounded in being unsafe.I just get uneasy when the boat starts to heel in heavy winds. But the good news is that I am learning to live with it and as I get more experience it gets less bothersome. I know the boat isn't going to capsize.....don't I?Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Scott]

Easy does it guys!

Just givin the bro' a little tough love! But my point still stands. Just because the other guy may have been an idiot isn't an excuse for O'Day 28 NOT to have any common sense. We still don't know if the water was as extremely cold as I am assuming. Bob, are you O'Day 28? I agree, if you are wearing a wetsuit, you don't need to fear hypothermia on a small lake!If he was in San Diego, Joe, it probably was a beautiful day! But he hints at being from the northland and anybody who has been around water in March anywhere north of New Jersey knows that a wetsuit would be in order on a catamaran. It doesn't matter if the guy was a first time sailer.Joe, I did wonder what Dr. Phil would say! "Jist becuz the other guy is an idiot doesn't mean yoooo're not an idiot, tooooo!"Lighten up, please ... at least we're not getting political!

 

[BobW]

No Scott, I'm not ODay 28

X SAIL R 8 is an '87 Hunter 31.And I don't sail IN a wet suit, I meant that we have them aboard (our whole family are divers and snorklers) when we sail.We also don't sail on a lake, it's out into the Pacific for us, mostly the Santa Barbara Channel, also known as 'Windy Alley'.When I take first-timers out, I feel it is my responsibility to assume they know nothing and to make their trip safe, comfortable and enjoyable. Flying a Hobie on a cold lake doesn't qualify in my book. And if something goes wrong (like my passenger getting bonked in the head by the boom) it certainly isn't their fault, it's mine!And don't worry, if things get out of hand around here, Phil will wield his sword and lop off the post of the offender *yksLove the Dr. Phil imitation!Maybe we should ask Phil to set up a 'private' forum for stuff that shouldn't be shared with the weak and proper folks...... hmmmmmm.Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Scott]

Still just bustin'

O'Day 28 DID prove his competence by comandeering the vessel for both their safety sake! I agree with all the other advise ... but still, it's odd that a grown man would be almost panicky about heeling just because he was once on a small boat that capsized. There has to be something more that underlies that fear.I always get a kick out of watching a newbies astonished look when the power of the wind heels our boat over. It feels so stable when we motor out, but as soon as the sails are set into a fresh breeze and we heel right over, even to just 15 degrees, the look of surprise is priceless to me.We brought our boat to our lake for a number of reasons, but one important factor was that I wanted to get used to sailing a keel boat in an unintimidating environment, especially because my wife was completely new to sailing. Because we sail on a lake where shore is never far away, my wife has become very comfortable with heeling the boat on a close haul. She barely even notices until we occasionally hit 30 degrees.I am curious about what others think. For us, the fun begins at 15 d. At 20 to 25 d we are comfortable and the boat reaches its best speed. When we hit 30 d with consistency, we tire of the weather helm and letting the traveller out, so we reduce sail area.I have to admit that on the flat water of our lake, we have much less concern than if we were in open water with large waves. I would hazard a guess that reefing would be necessary for us when 25 degrees becomes a consistent amount of heel in rough conditions, but I can be somewhat of an idiot in that I will wait too long before reducing sail. I'm trying to change that trait! :}What an afternoon we had today though! It was cloudy and cool so virtually NO powerboats running around. The breeze was just enough to have a really relaxing sail without too much effort. After a HOT summer, it is nice to get some cooler weather out of the sun and what I like most about no power boats is the silence!

 

[Dick Westwood]

Condition of your rig

I too get concerned about the cracking and groaning when I'm heeled over in heavy air. But in my case, I'm more concerned about the integrity of the boat systems: most significantly the standing rigging (which in my case is old and will get replaced this winter); secondarily the keel bolts (which are highly corroded, and will get replaced this winter!)We're talking about pushing boats towards their limits here. Lose a shroud or a stay: significant likelihood of losing your mast. (And 10-year-old rigging is OLD.) Because of this, I currently reef early and won't push it too far until I'm sure the rigging can stand it. Losing my keel wouldn't be much of a treat either.BTW: Don Guillette wrote a wonderful checklist of what to do if something breaks - a stay, a shroud, a mast, etc. It's in the archives, and worth searching for.Dick

 

[Capt Jim24025]

Priceless or irresponsible?

Scott, You said something that concerns me very deeply. The look of suprise in your non-sailing passengers is priceless to you. First; there is nothing "rational" about a panic-related fear. It is a gut-renching feeling that can't be explained away and may often take years to overcome regardless of the person's age when it originated.Second; I know my boat (O'Day 27) and I have had her over to 45+ degrees on several occassions and never lost any steerage control. I know how she handles and when to stop pushing. I love to sail her at 25-30 degrees, but have few crew that enjoy it as much as I.Third; I'm a licensed captain and I frequently do captain's charters and dinner cruises. I always ask passengers if they have ever sailed BEFORE I LEAVE THE SLIP. If anyone hasn't been on a sailboat before, I do a 5-minute discussion of heeling and that sailboats are designed to heel. I talk about the wind glancing off the sail the more you heel and the keel pulling harder to upright the boat. Then I say, "If you aren't heeling, you don't have any wind in your sails and you aren't going anywhere. A sailboat is supposed to heel." I do all this to prevent someone's fear and panic. What you call "suprise" I call "panic". These people sometimes think the boat is going capsize right then. To them, 10-15 degrees FEELS LIKE 90 degrees. This panic can ruin the rest of the trip for those individuals (and their spouses who can no longer go sailing without them).I feel it is irresponsible of any sailor (or any person) to get a kick out of someone else's discomfort. You are as guilty of a lack of consideration (to a lesser degree) as the moron who endangered ODay_28's life on the catamaran. ODay_28 is the victim of an UNSAFE SAILOR whose actions have caused continuing anxiety.As the skipper/captain of a vessel, it is our responsibility to insure the safety and comfort of your crew and guests. Taking people out is an opportunity for every skipper to spread the joy of sailing and encourage everyone to SAFELY participate in this sport.There, now I'll step down off of my soapbox and yield the floor to someone else. Sincerely,Capt Jim

 

[BobW]

Hear, Here, Capt. Jim!

Excellent job on the soapbox.So I commiserate with another sailer and end up being told I'm 'almost panicky'.... no, not even close.I can think of all kinds of things to say to Scott, but it's not worth it......Maybe I'll develop an aversion to sailing with anybody named Scott...... would that be irrational?In the meantime, that'll be me out in Windy Alley, on the real ocean, sailing year-round and learning, thanks to the helpful advice and counsel of many of the experts in this and other forums (I'd try to name you all, but for sure I'd forget somebody.... can't be doing that!) and yes, even learning from the nay-sayers and negative folks (not going to try to name them..... hehehe)Smile, folks, the neat thing is we all get to share.... sailing!!!Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Chuck]

I agree with Bill Coxe

The O28 is a great boat, solid and forgiving. I owned one for 14 years and my wife and I have enjoyed that boat in Vineyard waters without any serious incidents. I've sailed it in 30 knot winds and in significant swells and she performed well in every situation. Just reef early and always keep the admiral happy. She's a bit sensitive to tipping also. When the wind picks up, she takes the ferry, and that's my chance to be a cowboy in it.Practice with confidence because she won't let you down.I've got a '86 Cal33 now and we both are nuts about this boat too.Chuck

 

[Joe]

well said, Capt Jim...

Scott, "tough love" is not telling a stranger he lacks common sense because he fears something outside your own experience.

 

[Scott]

Perhaps you misunderstood, Capt Jim

Or perhaps you intentionally misrepresented what I said. The wind's power never ceases to amaze me and I love to see a persons face light up with excitement when the boat braces into the wind. I've never frightened anybody on board my boat, nor do I intend to.Bob, where did I call you panicky? O'Day 28 called himself panicky. I'm suggesting that his fear is cold water and he doesn't want to end up in the drink, like he did before, with strength almost immediately sapped, as hypothermia will do. That's what he described in his post. I am presuming that his boat is on the coast in Maine, as he hints, where the water is cold year round.I related that we intentionally brought our boat to an unintimidating body of water to gain confidence with a keel boat and introduce my wife to sailing in a familiar environment. I don't know anybody who would be afraid to end up in the calm, warm water of our lake.I thought the suggestion might be helpful. Obviously O'Day 28 thinks there is something unusual about his fear, why does he consider therapy? I think he wants to face up to his part in the decision making process that led him to get into serious trouble in cold water.You can blame the other guy, but it doesn't change the outcome.

 

[Sam]

Me, too

I had the same problem, though from natural caution/fear, rather than from being dunked. I spent most of my time on my first boat releasing the mainsheet so it wouldn't heel too much.To some degree, your feeling goes away with experience. Eventually, your brain recognizes that every puff is not going to knock you over. But there is another thing you can do: buy a stiff boat. A boat's hull shape as well as keel have a lot to do with how she responds to a puff. I now have a fairly stiff boat and that, plus experience, have made me a much more relaxed sailor. So relaxed that I sometimes wonder what it would be like to have a boat that heels. If that can happenbd to me, there's hope for you as well.

 

[Capt Jim24025]

My appologies to Scott

Perhaps I did misunderstand. The thrill of excitement on their faces is what we all want to share, but my past experience has been that initial look of suprise when the boat heels up is 95% fright and only about 5% thrill. Please be very empathetic as to which emotion is ruling your passengers.I also agree with you that Oday28 used the term panicky. I also agree that his panic was generated or increased by the cold water. Hypothermia scares me! I believe that some type of therapy probably is the right course of action. I only wonder what therapy would be best. I've never had professional counseling, so I can't comment on its effectiveness, but personally I would choose to spend those hours (and dollars) on the water in fair weather developing my confidence in myself and the boat. Depending on ODay28's level of anxiety, perhaps counseling will be useful to encourage him to get out on the boat to build the experience. ODay28, please do whatever you feel is appropriate to get on the water and build your confidence levels. Look back on the bad events as learning experiences that have taught you: 1)what not to do 2)don't get cocky on the water and 3)how to safely and correctly introduce others to this wonderful sport. First,get enough experience to know that YOU ARE SAFE, then take out other people. By focusing on other people, you may be able to put your fears behind you and relax and enjoy the time you have to share with your friends and family.Good luck, best wishes, and"Fair winds and following seas."We'll look forward to seeing you on the water with a big smile on your face.Sincerely,Capt Jim

 

[Scott]

No problem, Capt Jim!

I can see how my statement could be interpreted the other way, I was not clear. And I was bustin' on O'Day 28 to some extent. Some people thought it was an uncaring response.I'm sure it isn't easy to figure out the true underlying cause of a particular fear, and we can only speculate. I think I would rather spend dollars on sailing stuff rather than therapy, and I'd rather spend time sailing rather than on a couch. Hopefully, O'Day 28 figures out what to do!

 

[Sue]

Same Fear, Same Worries

I too get freightened, as a newbie sailor of 1 1/2 years, when my Hunter 44DS heels over too far. My husband loves it but I like to go much flatter. Well, we're now looking at a good captain to give us private lessons on our own vessel as one way of helping combat my fear. And, since I've started on anti-depressants for some other conditions that middle aged women often need them for (menopause!! hehehe) I'm a little less panicky about taking my home (we live aboard) and every one of my possessions out for a sail. I think that the more experience I gain the better I'll be. Knowing that some day I'll be able to call a mayday and handle a MOB drill when hubby goes overboard without knocking myself off the deck and totaling the boat during a night time sail is a long way off for me!! We too plan to leave for cruising in 5 years so I know we need experience in all kinds of weather. I read an article in Sail Magazine or in Latitude that it will take at least one sailing outing per week over the next 3-5 year in all kinds of conditions to become proficient enough to cruise. Take turns sharing the helm duties and the line duties so you know what's going on in each position. Also, we have no qualms about asking dock neighbors to go sailing with us to give us pointers from different perspectives. To my credit, I did survive a trip home from Catalina in 40 kts true wind and 10-14 (seemed like 50) foot confused seas. I have that under my belt even though I crumbled to tears behind the breakwater and wanted to give the boat back. I'll get there, but I still like t flatter!!! Keep trying!!!

 

[Capt Jim24025]

Way to go Sue!!!

You understand your current limitations, you have defined your goals, and you have a plan of action to get from point A to point B. That's more than many of us.I am confident that you will achieve your goal and enjoy doing it.If you haven't done so, please consider taking sailing classes (both of you) from a reputable sailing school. It's like learning to use the computer. If you teach yourself to write a letter, you only learn what you have to do to accomplish the task, but if you take a class you will learn a lot more than the bare minimums. Sailing classes will introduce you to the rules of prudent seamanship, right-of-way (stand-on vs give-way vessels), etc that will make you a better and SAFER sailor. If you haven't picked the captain to go out on your boat, contact a sailing school to find a captain who is also a teacher. Just because a person is a competent captain doesn't mean the they are good at "teaching" you what to do and why.Good luck and embrace your future sailing activities with gusto.Capt Jim