This is really bugging me, so I’m interested in what you have to say… I had the ‘pleasure’ of grounding in mud while taking a bunch of teens on a benefit instructional day. Teen at helm didn’t have the knowledge or reaction time that I would have had, so for the first time in 6 years I found myself stuck. A nearby waverider helped by taking my anchor and line out 200ft, which I tied onto the mail halyard. But bottom was soft mud, and I didn’t help. Within a few minutes, a nearby launch (NY Athletic Club), the police (white boat), the coast guard (orange boat), and sea tow (yellow boat) showed up. Now it was colorful and we were really having fun! Each person that showed up told me to wait for the next and all were deferring to sea tow. Now critical minutes were lost (last third of ebb tide) (I TOLD them only to run aground on a rising tide) I have ‘unlimited’ towing with Sea Tow. Never used it. But now I’m told I’m ‘hard aground and it’ll cost me $30/ft (34ft C&C)???!!! So I held my tongue, said no, I’ll wait (7’ tide). Police offloaded my passengers and took them to my nearby boat yard. But first told me I’m making a BIG mistake!! No wind, mud bottom, I was comfortable with my decision, and after about 6 hours I floated off. So the point is…WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT??? Tow boats taking advantage of ancient maritime laws?? If Sea Tow had taken my halyard and line, I would have been off in 5 minutes. $1000?? I politely complained to Sea Tow headquarters the next day, and I was told by them that I made the right move to simply wait. Comments? Stewart Dalsimer Sea Major
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Blame it on commercial towers
Some 15 years ago, commercial towers convinced the CG that free assistance from them and the CG Aux was cutting seriously into their ability to make a living. So the CG adopted a policy that does not allow them or the Aux to offer assistance where commercial towers operate unless the vessel and/or crew are in imminent life-threatening danger or at sea out of the range of commercial towers. Most local law enforcement agencies have opted to follow that policy too. The NYYC launch prob'ly decided to stay out of it to avoid any potential liability if your vessel was damaged as a result of pulling you loose. "Salvage rights" are a totally different issue and have nothing to do with your situation.
Some 15 years ago, commercial towers convinced the CG that free assistance from them and the CG Aux was cutting seriously into their ability to make a living. So the CG adopted a policy that does not allow them or the Aux to offer assistance where commercial towers operate unless the vessel and/or crew are in imminent life-threatening danger or at sea out of the range of commercial towers. Most local law enforcement agencies have opted to follow that policy too. The NYYC launch prob'ly decided to stay out of it to avoid any potential liability if your vessel was damaged as a result of pulling you loose. "Salvage rights" are a totally different issue and have nothing to do with your situation.
I don't understand
You have unlimited towing with SeaTow but SeaTow still wanted to charge you? What are the conditions of your unlimited towing that I assume you've been paying for? I can understand why it costs so much to tow a boat. Imagine how much it costs to run a towing company! And most folks aren't as patient as you are so they can pretty much charge what they need to. Peggie's right about the salvage laws - what you would have been charged for a tow is NOTHING compared what they would have gotten in a salvage situation! LaDonna
You have unlimited towing with SeaTow but SeaTow still wanted to charge you? What are the conditions of your unlimited towing that I assume you've been paying for? I can understand why it costs so much to tow a boat. Imagine how much it costs to run a towing company! And most folks aren't as patient as you are so they can pretty much charge what they need to. Peggie's right about the salvage laws - what you would have been charged for a tow is NOTHING compared what they would have gotten in a salvage situation! LaDonna
stuck
hello stewart, I think what you have is a simple case of " let us shaft a guy that is in a desperate situation " you know, boat load of kids, can't get back to shore, worried parents, full toilet, ( we got him ). Enjoy your victory over greed and corruption. john
hello stewart, I think what you have is a simple case of " let us shaft a guy that is in a desperate situation " you know, boat load of kids, can't get back to shore, worried parents, full toilet, ( we got him ). Enjoy your victory over greed and corruption. john
Tow Boat US
"Towboat US operators have set up guidelines. They have agreed that towing or (simple)ungrounding is defined as: 1.Any operation not involving immediate danger to the boat or to a legally protected marine environment, 2. requiring just one towing vessel with lines attached to a grounded boat to refloat it or to the disabled boat to tow it. For example, if a grounded boat can rest without danger until the tide returns to float her free, or a boat is drifting in calm conditions after losing power, this almost always means it will be towing, not salvage, under these guidelines." Page 22, 2002 Boat US Towing guide.
"Towboat US operators have set up guidelines. They have agreed that towing or (simple)ungrounding is defined as: 1.Any operation not involving immediate danger to the boat or to a legally protected marine environment, 2. requiring just one towing vessel with lines attached to a grounded boat to refloat it or to the disabled boat to tow it. For example, if a grounded boat can rest without danger until the tide returns to float her free, or a boat is drifting in calm conditions after losing power, this almost always means it will be towing, not salvage, under these guidelines." Page 22, 2002 Boat US Towing guide.
Sea Tow operator was wrong - you should complain..
..perhpas complain again. From the Sea Tow site: "A covered vessel will be ungrounded at no charge (soft aground only). Now, you ask, what is a soft ungrounding? Basically, if we can free your vessel with one Sea Tow Boat in fifteen minutes and your vessel is not in danger, that's soft aground. The fifteen minutes is "pulling" time and does not include the time it takes to reach you. "Hard aground" vessels constitute a salvage situation and are usually covered by the vessel's insurance policy." So, did he try to tow you out of the mud??? If he didn't try, with one boat, for fifteen minutes, you were ripped off. jv
..perhpas complain again. From the Sea Tow site: "A covered vessel will be ungrounded at no charge (soft aground only). Now, you ask, what is a soft ungrounding? Basically, if we can free your vessel with one Sea Tow Boat in fifteen minutes and your vessel is not in danger, that's soft aground. The fifteen minutes is "pulling" time and does not include the time it takes to reach you. "Hard aground" vessels constitute a salvage situation and are usually covered by the vessel's insurance policy." So, did he try to tow you out of the mud??? If he didn't try, with one boat, for fifteen minutes, you were ripped off. jv
Sea Tow v. Towboat US
Sea Tow looks a LOT better thatn Boat US's service. No distance, time, or dollar limit v. TBUS 25 mile radius from their base. Reimburse $2500 v. $1000. for out-of area. AND, Sea Tow is $95., v. TBUS $99. plus Boat US membership. I don't belong to either, but am considering Sea Tow. Anyone? jv
Sea Tow looks a LOT better thatn Boat US's service. No distance, time, or dollar limit v. TBUS 25 mile radius from their base. Reimburse $2500 v. $1000. for out-of area. AND, Sea Tow is $95., v. TBUS $99. plus Boat US membership. I don't belong to either, but am considering Sea Tow. Anyone? jv
"Greed and corruption???"
Ok...YOU go out and spend at least $60k for a boat equipped for towing with big motors to get you to your customers quickly. Insure the boat AND buy enough liability insurance to protect you from a lawsuit by some idiot who never should have been on the water in the first place and failed to follow your instructions. Pay for dockage and maintenance to keep the boat running perfectly...pay for repairs. Hire at least one crew and one office staff. Spend an average of 8 hours of each 12-14 hour day out on the water burning fuel at an average rate of about 25 gals/hour x $2+/gallon. Then multiply that by at least 2 boats if you're gonna be able to serve even the smallest boating population. Now do the math. I think you'll find that YOUR idea of a "fair" price for towing won't even cover 50% of the costs, much less leave anything to pay yourself.
Ok...YOU go out and spend at least $60k for a boat equipped for towing with big motors to get you to your customers quickly. Insure the boat AND buy enough liability insurance to protect you from a lawsuit by some idiot who never should have been on the water in the first place and failed to follow your instructions. Pay for dockage and maintenance to keep the boat running perfectly...pay for repairs. Hire at least one crew and one office staff. Spend an average of 8 hours of each 12-14 hour day out on the water burning fuel at an average rate of about 25 gals/hour x $2+/gallon. Then multiply that by at least 2 boats if you're gonna be able to serve even the smallest boating population. Now do the math. I think you'll find that YOUR idea of a "fair" price for towing won't even cover 50% of the costs, much less leave anything to pay yourself.
But Peggy he had ‘unlimited’ towing with Sea Tow
He already paid for the service! Why is is "ok" for them to charge *another* $30 a foot when the Sea Tow Policy specifically says that "A covered vessel will be ungrounded at no charge (soft aground only). -- which is if they can free your vessel with one Sea Tow Boat in fifteen minutes and your vessel is not in danger, that's soft aground. " They didn't even try and since it was not in iminent danger and he floated himself off just 6 hours later, I don't know how anyone would be allowed to claim that as a salvage operation. I agree with John Renfro and I think they saw an opportunity to be greedy and took it. I live in the area, and yes, there are still people that are like "screw him --- I'm gonna make my money because he's really in a jam". Stewart I hope you more than I "politely complained" to Sea Tow headquarters. I would have been LIVID. They did not live up to their end of a contract. He did not try for 15 minutes to pull you off the soft mud ! Thats CRAP that the headquarter said that you " made the right move to simply wait."....Its easy for them to say. It wasn't 6 hours of their life. I hope you demanded a full refund for your annual fees ! Just because of this I wouldn't use Sea Tow. I have Tow Boat US and have been very happy with them so far , but (knock on wood) never needed a tow.
He already paid for the service! Why is is "ok" for them to charge *another* $30 a foot when the Sea Tow Policy specifically says that "A covered vessel will be ungrounded at no charge (soft aground only). -- which is if they can free your vessel with one Sea Tow Boat in fifteen minutes and your vessel is not in danger, that's soft aground. " They didn't even try and since it was not in iminent danger and he floated himself off just 6 hours later, I don't know how anyone would be allowed to claim that as a salvage operation. I agree with John Renfro and I think they saw an opportunity to be greedy and took it. I live in the area, and yes, there are still people that are like "screw him --- I'm gonna make my money because he's really in a jam". Stewart I hope you more than I "politely complained" to Sea Tow headquarters. I would have been LIVID. They did not live up to their end of a contract. He did not try for 15 minutes to pull you off the soft mud ! Thats CRAP that the headquarter said that you " made the right move to simply wait."....Its easy for them to say. It wasn't 6 hours of their life. I hope you demanded a full refund for your annual fees ! Just because of this I wouldn't use Sea Tow. I have Tow Boat US and have been very happy with them so far , but (knock on wood) never needed a tow.
But they sell "insurance"...
to lots of people who never use it. I agree with Peggy that towing is a tough way to make a living but surely the tow boat franchises get a cut of all the insurance premiums that people are paying to the parent company? Or does the tow boat owner just get paid for each actual tow either from TowBoat US or the towed boats owner? I just wonder how they decided it was "hard" rather than "soft" and thus not covered by the policy...
to lots of people who never use it. I agree with Peggy that towing is a tough way to make a living but surely the tow boat franchises get a cut of all the insurance premiums that people are paying to the parent company? Or does the tow boat owner just get paid for each actual tow either from TowBoat US or the towed boats owner? I just wonder how they decided it was "hard" rather than "soft" and thus not covered by the policy...
Sent an email to SeaTow
I asked SeaTow to please respond to this thread. I'm hoping it's a case of a SeaTow captain that didn't know a hard grounding from his elbow, and a boat owner who (like me, until 15 minutes ago) didn't know his rights as a member. I put a link to Stewart's post right in the email. Let's see if they respond.
I asked SeaTow to please respond to this thread. I'm hoping it's a case of a SeaTow captain that didn't know a hard grounding from his elbow, and a boat owner who (like me, until 15 minutes ago) didn't know his rights as a member. I put a link to Stewart's post right in the email. Let's see if they respond.
peggy, 'salvage' was the reason used
peggy, I didn't finish reading responses, but clearly and in front of police, Sea Tow stated the 's' word as the reason for deciding to give me a discounted rate of $30/ft. I paid my $100/yr. for unlimited towing. the question appeared to be hard aground or soft aground, and I was dissapointed with their decision, which was not to be argued with. AND in front of police and coast guard. (note again police pressed for me to give the go-ahead for the 'salvage' operation, and noted in front of my crew that it was a bad decision to wait)
peggy, I didn't finish reading responses, but clearly and in front of police, Sea Tow stated the 's' word as the reason for deciding to give me a discounted rate of $30/ft. I paid my $100/yr. for unlimited towing. the question appeared to be hard aground or soft aground, and I was dissapointed with their decision, which was not to be argued with. AND in front of police and coast guard. (note again police pressed for me to give the go-ahead for the 'salvage' operation, and noted in front of my crew that it was a bad decision to wait)
JV, Sea Tow refused to try
John, thanks for the response. the sea tow operator refused to take my main halyard from me, stating that it was salvage. Time slowed down for a moment while he told me that it was $30 (which I would have paid!) until he said PER FOOT.
John, thanks for the response. the sea tow operator refused to take my main halyard from me, stating that it was salvage. Time slowed down for a moment while he told me that it was $30 (which I would have paid!) until he said PER FOOT.
peggy, you're off base
Peggy, look at the facts. For me to be told that I'm being given a cut rate of $1020 for 15 minutes of work is simply unreasonable. If it is unprofitable for tow boat operators to collect $100/yr from every member, plus the money they can collect from legitimate salvage operations, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Peggy, look at the facts. For me to be told that I'm being given a cut rate of $1020 for 15 minutes of work is simply unreasonable. If it is unprofitable for tow boat operators to collect $100/yr from every member, plus the money they can collect from legitimate salvage operations, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
I didn' t say it was ok...
I think what we had here is a failure to communicate (what movie was that?)
I thought he was just complaining about the high cost of towing fees...refusing to honor his insurance and trying to charge for service he didn't need that wasn't covered is another matter. As I understand it (John Visser can correct me if I'm wrong), Sea Tow and TowBOAT/US are franchise operations owned local operators. Apparently, some of 'em don't want to follow corporate policy.
I think what we had here is a failure to communicate (what movie was that?)
I thought he was just complaining about the high cost of towing fees...refusing to honor his insurance and trying to charge for service he didn't need that wasn't covered is another matter. As I understand it (John Visser can correct me if I'm wrong), Sea Tow and TowBOAT/US are franchise operations owned local operators. Apparently, some of 'em don't want to follow corporate policy.Very fine line!
There is a fine line between tow & salvage. Just hope you are covered! http://www.boatus.com/towing/guide/salvage/towsal.asp
There is a fine line between tow & salvage. Just hope you are covered! http://www.boatus.com/towing/guide/salvage/towsal.asp
When the salvage charges started.
Stewart: I believe that what you have here is a matter of terminology. When they came out to tow you they started the clock from the time they left their port until they estimated they would return. That was one price and you where covered for that procedure. Once you told them that you where hard aground they are on a different rate table and you are NOT covered for that procedure. It is almost a case of bait and switch, but I am sure it is totally legal (but unethical). They work within their rules and WE pay the price. Of course if your life was at stake, the price would be a bargin! This should be a lesson to EVERYONE. Check your policy and coverages. It could cost you your vessel.
Stewart: I believe that what you have here is a matter of terminology. When they came out to tow you they started the clock from the time they left their port until they estimated they would return. That was one price and you where covered for that procedure. Once you told them that you where hard aground they are on a different rate table and you are NOT covered for that procedure. It is almost a case of bait and switch, but I am sure it is totally legal (but unethical). They work within their rules and WE pay the price. Of course if your life was at stake, the price would be a bargin! This should be a lesson to EVERYONE. Check your policy and coverages. It could cost you your vessel.
fine line....between honest and dishonest?
Steve, I don't know the actual laws regarding 'salvage', but on a practical basis it isn't based on any reality that I am familiar with. A coastal cruiser with 40 years of experience gets stuck in some mud. What's the big deal? Not worth $1000. Hard aground vs soft aground? I am sorry if tow boat companies don't make enough money. then let them charge $200/yr. Perhaps the 'salvage' laws require rewriting if they can allow this type of abuse.
Steve, I don't know the actual laws regarding 'salvage', but on a practical basis it isn't based on any reality that I am familiar with. A coastal cruiser with 40 years of experience gets stuck in some mud. What's the big deal? Not worth $1000. Hard aground vs soft aground? I am sorry if tow boat companies don't make enough money. then let them charge $200/yr. Perhaps the 'salvage' laws require rewriting if they can allow this type of abuse.
a Tow Boat US experience
I got stuck in the mud last spring and decided to use my Boat US membership which had a $500 max. They responded politely to my radio call and true to their word showed up 20 minutes later. I threw them a line and the twin outboards grunted for all of 5 minutes until we were free. They followed me to my slip (yes I was stuck just outside the channel into the marina...how embarrising). The very nice, polite fellow then got out his pad and started his lengthy computations, which I believe took longer than the actual "tug". I, of course was relaxing in the cockpit, without a care, because there was no way the 5 minute "tug" was going to cost more than $500.....right? Well, I can still remember the shock when he told me the charges came to $535 and would I be paying the $35 in cash, check or credit card? I now have their unlimited coverage and still get a little nervous in shallow water. By the way, Boat US charges $10 per foot for ungrounding in addition to $125 per hour from the time they leave their dock to the anticipated time of return. I think the common practice of a rate that is based on the length of your boat is not exactly fair. What do you folks think about that? Don B.
I got stuck in the mud last spring and decided to use my Boat US membership which had a $500 max. They responded politely to my radio call and true to their word showed up 20 minutes later. I threw them a line and the twin outboards grunted for all of 5 minutes until we were free. They followed me to my slip (yes I was stuck just outside the channel into the marina...how embarrising). The very nice, polite fellow then got out his pad and started his lengthy computations, which I believe took longer than the actual "tug". I, of course was relaxing in the cockpit, without a care, because there was no way the 5 minute "tug" was going to cost more than $500.....right? Well, I can still remember the shock when he told me the charges came to $535 and would I be paying the $35 in cash, check or credit card? I now have their unlimited coverage and still get a little nervous in shallow water. By the way, Boat US charges $10 per foot for ungrounding in addition to $125 per hour from the time they leave their dock to the anticipated time of return. I think the common practice of a rate that is based on the length of your boat is not exactly fair. What do you folks think about that? Don B.
My Boat U.S. experience was good.
On our way back to City Island, the engine became fuel starved thanks to clogged fuel filters. We were at least five miles from the marina and heading towards Hell's Gate on an incoming tide. We called Boat U.S. as we were abot to go under the 59th Street Bridge. The tow boat showed up just as we came were entering Hell's Gate. From there, it took at least 45 minutes for the tow to City Island. At the time I had the $500 coverage. He charged Boat U.S. $475. Keep it was a 34' sailboat, and he had to come get us which probably took about 30 minutes. The way I see it, the $69 cost for the $500 coverage was the best investment I made all year. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
On our way back to City Island, the engine became fuel starved thanks to clogged fuel filters. We were at least five miles from the marina and heading towards Hell's Gate on an incoming tide. We called Boat U.S. as we were abot to go under the 59th Street Bridge. The tow boat showed up just as we came were entering Hell's Gate. From there, it took at least 45 minutes for the tow to City Island. At the time I had the $500 coverage. He charged Boat U.S. $475. Keep it was a 34' sailboat, and he had to come get us which probably took about 30 minutes. The way I see it, the $69 cost for the $500 coverage was the best investment I made all year. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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