Once more I turn to the expert advice and opinions of the Hunter forum. I have heard that it is unsafe to sail with the mail sail only on an H26. Something about tension on the mast. I have been known to hoist only the main in moderate to heavy winds. Is this unsafe, or somehow detrimental to the mast and or rigging. Thanks in advance for your help.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
J
Jim Covey
The other sail?
I've always heard you shouldn't sail with the head sail only due to no back stay so the main helps balance the load. Without the head sail you won't be able to point nearly as well but I don't know of any problems that can be caused by main only. I'll be interested to hear of any other comments on this issue as well. Jim
I've always heard you shouldn't sail with the head sail only due to no back stay so the main helps balance the load. Without the head sail you won't be able to point nearly as well but I don't know of any problems that can be caused by main only. I'll be interested to hear of any other comments on this issue as well. Jim
F
Frank Ladd
I do it all the time
On my 235 which has a similar B&R rig I sail with main only on a regular basis. My first reduction is to reef the main, the next is to drop the jib and unreef the main, the last is to sail with just a reefed main. I've surfed the boat when I was out in weather I should not have been in and the reefed main only did fine. I think our boats were designed for bareheaded sailing.
On my 235 which has a similar B&R rig I sail with main only on a regular basis. My first reduction is to reef the main, the next is to drop the jib and unreef the main, the last is to sail with just a reefed main. I've surfed the boat when I was out in weather I should not have been in and the reefed main only did fine. I think our boats were designed for bareheaded sailing.
M
MIke Pajewski
Sailing Jib Free
We often sail our 26 without the jib. The boat reaches very well, although it can be a little imbalanced.
We often sail our 26 without the jib. The boat reaches very well, although it can be a little imbalanced.
I
IslandJack
Lost a mast
I lost a mast once being towed....had no sail up. I don't think it would have happened if I had at least something up to absorb the shock and whip of the mast. I've sailed with main only, jib only, neither was bad on the rigging that I saw.....but then again, I'm the one that lost a mast! haha
I lost a mast once being towed....had no sail up. I don't think it would have happened if I had at least something up to absorb the shock and whip of the mast. I've sailed with main only, jib only, neither was bad on the rigging that I saw.....but then again, I'm the one that lost a mast! haha
M
Michael
But how would it happen?
What would cause the problem if only the main was up? It isn't as if you undo the forestay. Is the idea that it is because (as in the previous message) the extra shock to the rigging? Maybe, but it just doesn't sound right. I have always sailed boats from time to time with just the main up. But haven't really done it with the H26. Anyone else hear this? Michael H26
What would cause the problem if only the main was up? It isn't as if you undo the forestay. Is the idea that it is because (as in the previous message) the extra shock to the rigging? Maybe, but it just doesn't sound right. I have always sailed boats from time to time with just the main up. But haven't really done it with the H26. Anyone else hear this? Michael H26
R
R Sater
Stress and balance
I heard it had to do with stress on only one side of the mast. Particularly in heavy conditions. Specific to models with no back stays. Sorta makes sense, but not sure I buy it.
I heard it had to do with stress on only one side of the mast. Particularly in heavy conditions. Specific to models with no back stays. Sorta makes sense, but not sure I buy it.
T
Tom Wootton
I don't buy it
By sailing without the jib, you remove a load along the length of the headstay. Hard to see how this increases any loads on the mast, unless the standing rigging isn't tuned properly. If the shrouds (or the headstay) go slack without the jib, but stay taut with it, that's a tuning problem, which could cause a failure with or without the jib.
By sailing without the jib, you remove a load along the length of the headstay. Hard to see how this increases any loads on the mast, unless the standing rigging isn't tuned properly. If the shrouds (or the headstay) go slack without the jib, but stay taut with it, that's a tuning problem, which could cause a failure with or without the jib.
M
Marcel
Urban legend?
If anyone has seen any written documentation from Hunter, or anyone else, that puts restrictions on which sails to use and when you should use them on the H-26, I would like to see it. I just re-read my H-26 Owners Manual and nothing like that is mentioned. I would think that if it was hazardous to fly either the main or jib by itself Hunter would tell us, for obvious reasons.
If anyone has seen any written documentation from Hunter, or anyone else, that puts restrictions on which sails to use and when you should use them on the H-26, I would like to see it. I just re-read my H-26 Owners Manual and nothing like that is mentioned. I would think that if it was hazardous to fly either the main or jib by itself Hunter would tell us, for obvious reasons.
J
Jack Kemme
I concur with Frank Ladd
I regularly sail with just the main on my '94 H26 and have never had a problem. My reduction steps are the same as Frank's.
I regularly sail with just the main on my '94 H26 and have never had a problem. My reduction steps are the same as Frank's.
T
Tom
All the time
I sail under main alone quite often. If the wind is blowing, the boat moves along quite well and you don't have to tack/jibe the jib. Better visibilty forward, too. As far as pointing, my experience is that you can point higher and keep the main driving relative to the jib due to the main sheet being on the centerline compared to the jib sheet being outboard. Fair winds, Tom
I sail under main alone quite often. If the wind is blowing, the boat moves along quite well and you don't have to tack/jibe the jib. Better visibilty forward, too. As far as pointing, my experience is that you can point higher and keep the main driving relative to the jib due to the main sheet being on the centerline compared to the jib sheet being outboard. Fair winds, Tom
M
Mark
Main up first, Main down last
Hello, I have been taught and always put main up first and main down last. I have seen people out with just a jib. Well....I am sure they have a reason. If you have the main up you can use, and should be using, the vaing to pull down on the boom, leach, and back on the mast. with no main and no back stay with a jib up you are pulling on the back swept shrouds/spreaders. I would not consider doing this in anything but light conditions--if at all. In the roughest conditions, I would have only the main up or partially up, and have lots of vaing on to support the mast. Especially it you have no back stay or running backs. tuning is expected top be correct. If you are not sure have an EXPERIENCED marina friend or hired help take a look. Or you can at least pull on other boats and hope the average tension feel between the sampled boats will work for you. I agree with Tom Wootton. Good luck! Mark
Hello, I have been taught and always put main up first and main down last. I have seen people out with just a jib. Well....I am sure they have a reason. If you have the main up you can use, and should be using, the vaing to pull down on the boom, leach, and back on the mast. with no main and no back stay with a jib up you are pulling on the back swept shrouds/spreaders. I would not consider doing this in anything but light conditions--if at all. In the roughest conditions, I would have only the main up or partially up, and have lots of vaing on to support the mast. Especially it you have no back stay or running backs. tuning is expected top be correct. If you are not sure have an EXPERIENCED marina friend or hired help take a look. Or you can at least pull on other boats and hope the average tension feel between the sampled boats will work for you. I agree with Tom Wootton. Good luck! Mark
R
Rob Ullinger
Doesn't seem logical
Thinking about this, it doesn't make sense. While I'm not a naval architect or physisist, it seems to me that the center of effort of both the main and the jib are both to lewward and forward, with a bulk of the load to lewward. Both sails are pulling the boat, and hence the mast, in essentially the same direction, otherwise the boat would slow down when we raise the second sail. The difference is mostly how that force is applied to the mast. With the main, the force would appear to be spread out over the length of the mast (but if I remeber my college physics from many years ago, can be expressed as a single vector through the center of effort), and the jib would apply its force at a single point approx 3/4 of the way up the mast (where the forstay is attached). It would seem to me that the center of effor of just the main would be somewhere below half way up the mast, as this is where the bulk of the sail is. So, it would follow that the leverage forward and to lewward that the jib is exserting on the mast is actually greater than the leverage exserted on the mast by the main. This may be offset, though, but the greater area of the main. Am I making sense?? Rob "Kinship"
Thinking about this, it doesn't make sense. While I'm not a naval architect or physisist, it seems to me that the center of effort of both the main and the jib are both to lewward and forward, with a bulk of the load to lewward. Both sails are pulling the boat, and hence the mast, in essentially the same direction, otherwise the boat would slow down when we raise the second sail. The difference is mostly how that force is applied to the mast. With the main, the force would appear to be spread out over the length of the mast (but if I remeber my college physics from many years ago, can be expressed as a single vector through the center of effort), and the jib would apply its force at a single point approx 3/4 of the way up the mast (where the forstay is attached). It would seem to me that the center of effor of just the main would be somewhere below half way up the mast, as this is where the bulk of the sail is. So, it would follow that the leverage forward and to lewward that the jib is exserting on the mast is actually greater than the leverage exserted on the mast by the main. This may be offset, though, but the greater area of the main. Am I making sense?? Rob "Kinship"
E
Ed
It seems to me that...
In most cases, sailing with the headsail alone puts the center of force ahead of the center of rotation, which induces "Lee-Helm" (not a safe way to sail). Sailing with the main alone puts the center of force aft of the center of rotation, which induces "Weather-Helm" (a safer way to sail, albeit tiring on the person at the helm). ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
In most cases, sailing with the headsail alone puts the center of force ahead of the center of rotation, which induces "Lee-Helm" (not a safe way to sail). Sailing with the main alone puts the center of force aft of the center of rotation, which induces "Weather-Helm" (a safer way to sail, albeit tiring on the person at the helm). ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Hmmmmm
After some head-scratching, here's my two cents. Some people sail with a roller-furling jib alone because it can be furled from the cockpit. That's OK. Mast support is not a big issue because the boom will probably be centered and sheeted down hard (the mainsail is flaked on it), so the topping lift will be pulling the mast aft (in addition to the upper shrouds). Sailing with the headsail alone doesn't always guarantee lee helm. If the boat heels too far, the center of effort moves outboard of the centerline of the boat. This eccentric load creates a moment which tries to turn the boat up into the wind, i.e. weather helm. This is particularly true with modern fin-keeled boats, which are very easy to turn (yaw). I've personally experienced this. The solution is to reduce the heel by reducing headsail area. The load from the jib is applied at the three points where its corners are attached to the boat: the ends of the headstay and the jib turning block/winch. Peter H23 "Raven"
After some head-scratching, here's my two cents. Some people sail with a roller-furling jib alone because it can be furled from the cockpit. That's OK. Mast support is not a big issue because the boom will probably be centered and sheeted down hard (the mainsail is flaked on it), so the topping lift will be pulling the mast aft (in addition to the upper shrouds). Sailing with the headsail alone doesn't always guarantee lee helm. If the boat heels too far, the center of effort moves outboard of the centerline of the boat. This eccentric load creates a moment which tries to turn the boat up into the wind, i.e. weather helm. This is particularly true with modern fin-keeled boats, which are very easy to turn (yaw). I've personally experienced this. The solution is to reduce the heel by reducing headsail area. The load from the jib is applied at the three points where its corners are attached to the boat: the ends of the headstay and the jib turning block/winch. Peter H23 "Raven"
R
Ron Mehringer
Mast pumping
No one has brought up the potential problem of mast pumping when sailing under headsail alone. As I understand it, a dangerous oscillation can start to happen in the mast that can result in the rig failing. I've never experienced it personally. I've been raised in the school of thought that says sailing under main alone is perfectly fine. Ron Mehringer s/v Hydro-Therapy "related link" is unrelated, but fun
No one has brought up the potential problem of mast pumping when sailing under headsail alone. As I understand it, a dangerous oscillation can start to happen in the mast that can result in the rig failing. I've never experienced it personally. I've been raised in the school of thought that says sailing under main alone is perfectly fine. Ron Mehringer s/v Hydro-Therapy "related link" is unrelated, but fun
M
Mark
Back Stay or Swept Back Spreaders
Wow, some of you have applied a lot of good theory into this subject--good job. The forestay tension is properly adjusted for performance sailing with the support of the backstay. This forstay tension can also be adjusted by the shrouds IF the shrouds/spreaders are swept back as many of our Hunters are set up. Buy having, or installing a backstay, you will be able to quickly adjust the headstay tension. Furthermore, if you have a backstay you will have a better rig. Do not forget down wind sailing when you consider the use of a vaing as I described earlier--At some points of sailing the vang has little mast supporting efforts. Especially when people sail too small of an angle down wind. All of my safety cautions about the lack of a backstay or running backs are directed more toward the rougher or unexpected conditions that can cause many people rigging problems. This would include the towing/mast lost story previously told. That rig may have been too loose and resulted in a whipping and shaking condition that resulted in a crisp snatching. Always look at your mast. Look for shaking, pumping, bending to starboard or port while sailing, loose shrouds or forestay (if not intentionally tuned this way for light air), and check for cracks in the turnbuckles and swedges. Did I mention having a professional check your rigging? Good luck, Mark
Wow, some of you have applied a lot of good theory into this subject--good job. The forestay tension is properly adjusted for performance sailing with the support of the backstay. This forstay tension can also be adjusted by the shrouds IF the shrouds/spreaders are swept back as many of our Hunters are set up. Buy having, or installing a backstay, you will be able to quickly adjust the headstay tension. Furthermore, if you have a backstay you will have a better rig. Do not forget down wind sailing when you consider the use of a vaing as I described earlier--At some points of sailing the vang has little mast supporting efforts. Especially when people sail too small of an angle down wind. All of my safety cautions about the lack of a backstay or running backs are directed more toward the rougher or unexpected conditions that can cause many people rigging problems. This would include the towing/mast lost story previously told. That rig may have been too loose and resulted in a whipping and shaking condition that resulted in a crisp snatching. Always look at your mast. Look for shaking, pumping, bending to starboard or port while sailing, loose shrouds or forestay (if not intentionally tuned this way for light air), and check for cracks in the turnbuckles and swedges. Did I mention having a professional check your rigging? Good luck, Mark
B
Bill
Mast Incident
I thought I would add this real life incident to the discussion. I used to own a H 23.5 and now own a H 26. Both boats have masts stepped on deck with a hinge at the rear of the tabernacle. This means that the forestay must support the mast to keep it upright both at rest and when sailing. Sailing downwind the backswept shrouds support the mast and upwind the load of the jib/genoa is added to the forestay. In 1999 I was sailing to a raftoff in my 23.5 with guest crew. For quite awhile we were sailing downwind and all was going well. Then came the time to turn to windward and almost all went well until the breeze and bang! The forestay broke away from the bow and the mast came down, barely missing all of us in the cockpit. After clearing the mess we were able to motor to the raft and spent the evening getting her up again against the amused faces of our fellow sailors. So friends, if you own a small Hunter sailboat remember, "gentlement never sail to windward.
I thought I would add this real life incident to the discussion. I used to own a H 23.5 and now own a H 26. Both boats have masts stepped on deck with a hinge at the rear of the tabernacle. This means that the forestay must support the mast to keep it upright both at rest and when sailing. Sailing downwind the backswept shrouds support the mast and upwind the load of the jib/genoa is added to the forestay. In 1999 I was sailing to a raftoff in my 23.5 with guest crew. For quite awhile we were sailing downwind and all was going well. Then came the time to turn to windward and almost all went well until the breeze and bang! The forestay broke away from the bow and the mast came down, barely missing all of us in the cockpit. After clearing the mess we were able to motor to the raft and spent the evening getting her up again against the amused faces of our fellow sailors. So friends, if you own a small Hunter sailboat remember, "gentlement never sail to windward.
M
Michael
What caused the break?
It sounds as if your turnbuckle failed -- or the stay itself -- not that there was any problem with sailing downwind or then to weather. ?? Michael
It sounds as if your turnbuckle failed -- or the stay itself -- not that there was any problem with sailing downwind or then to weather. ?? Michael
F
Frank Ladd
Bill, the boat doesn't matter
It doesn't matter if it is a Hunter or whether or not it has a back stay. If you lose the ofrestay the rig is likely to come down. I'm glad no one was hurt and I hope you figured out what caused it to break so that it will never happen again.
It doesn't matter if it is a Hunter or whether or not it has a back stay. If you lose the ofrestay the rig is likely to come down. I'm glad no one was hurt and I hope you figured out what caused it to break so that it will never happen again.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.