Sailing schooling

[Jackdaw]

At the end of the day, no charter-centric 'certification' has any worth more then the paper it is printed on. They represent an arbitrary set of requirements, with an arbitrary standard of achievement. Zero charter companies will accept them alone as your proof of proficiency when chartering one of their boats. Nor will they serve as a boating license where they are required.

Time on the water in like-sized boats is the only way to gain proficiency. It's why pilots track their flight hours. It's also why rental car agencies will not rent a car to a driver under 25, no matter what kind of drivers license they have.

 

[Serenity on Hudson]

My first encounters with sailing were in complete ignorance of anything but the physics of how a sail produces power (I'm an engineer). Knowing I knew little I took a week long sailing course from Steve Colgate in 1986. This course showed me very basic sail control and things like MOB procedures. I did not have a boat but rented boats wherever I traveled. Still only knew how to basically make the boat move generally in the direction i desired. Not efficiently but moving. Finally got a boat as a birthday present, Hunter 23.5, and sailed it for 12 years without ever considering how efficient the boat was being sailed. I enjoyed being on the water and getting where I wanted to go, even if very slow. Only in the last few years, after I began lurking on this forum, did I begin seeing if I could improve the efficiency of that hunter. First I tuned the rig. That removed about half of the chronic weather helm I was constantly fighting. Then I began working with the few sail controls I had to further improve the sailing characteristics of the Hunter. This led me to realize that until I got a boat with proper sail controls I would never learn to sail a balanced boat. Bought a Capri 22 with race package and began my shakedown period. What a difference. On my second sail with the Capri, I had the boat sailing itself balancing the sails for the first time since 1986. And that was just working on main sail controls. Only sailed the Capri 3 times and one was drifting on jib with the grand kids. Life has a way of getting in the way of sailing. Next time out I will be experimenting with fine tuning jib controls and balancing the sails better.
The sailing lessons that I started with didn't teach me to sail efficiently, but some important info stuck. Sailing up the Hudson river near West Point, a passenger went overboard in a rather inebriated condition. I instinctively went into MOB procedures and had him back on board within 1 minute. It took weeks to empty out all the beer cans from throughout the boat.
I have been reading Don's book on sail trim and find it presented what I know in a very organized way that is allowing me to plan my shakedown procedures in a more organized way. But actually sailing and tweeking sail controls has given me the feel of what each control does to the handling of the boat. I agree that a dingy is best to learn on so you can feel what you are adjusting, however, I find the Capri to sail like a much smaller boat reacting quickly to changes in sail trim. Likewise I found 19' boats like the Rhodes to also react quickly to changes allowing one to learn quickly sail trim effects. By the end of this year I hope to feel every every condition i expect to encounter in my sailing venue, which includes NOT sailing when the wind is likely to reach more than 20 kts. Those conditions are best for drinking beer and watching others struggle or overcome the conditions. Docking in those conditions is the problem as the light boat gets blown about as I near the dock. As I solo mostly and am of an advanced age, I just can't jump onto the dock as I am being blown away from it as I used to.

 

[Will Gilmore]

The first 2 sentences are just puffery,

I disagree. The first two sentences are the salient part of an ASA cert.

an ASA certification will become one of your prized accomplishments. Not only does it evidence your new sailing ability to the world, it gives you the confidence to maximize your experience.

Your soapbox complaints about the ASA may, in fact, be right on. They are a fluffy self-generating money machine. But those two sentences are real value to their clientele and many of their clients understand that. Just read some of the preceding posts. There is great value in being able to produce a document that vouches for your skills. If the bearer of those documents don't actually have those skills, then the ASA would soon find themselves wanting for customers as their graduates get turned away time and again because the certification wasn't good enough. Of course, they have little concern for that because by the time someone has qualified for the charter cert, they have already spent a fair amount of money for, at least, two previous courses. That alone demonstrates a seriousness to the customer's commitment and in all likelihood, they have been sailing on their own or with another captain, for a while. Why? Because the earlier courses have infused them with the confidence to go forth and get that hands-on sailing experience. It's a sweet deal for the ASA. But it isn't without value to their customers either.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[BigEasy]

I disagree. The first two sentences are the salient part of an ASA cert.

Your soapbox complaints about the ASA may, in fact, be right on. They are a fluffy self-generating money machine. But It's a sweet deal for the ASA. But it isn't without value to their customers either.

-Will (Dragonfly)

Geez guys and ladies, is it a sin to be in business to make a profit? ASA schools are somewhat like franchises in that the training facilities use ASA course and testing materials to train students. There's overhead for the course materials, bricks & mortar facility, cost of the training boats, marketing, and manpower. Do you really think these business owners should bust their tails and invest quite a bit of capital and not turn a profit, just because they are teaching sailing!!! What's wrong with trying to make a profit??? Colgate, ASA, Nautic ED and other private training facilities do the same.

 

[BigEasy]

What should I look for in a school or class?

tmleadr,
I must apologize to you. You asked a simple question for advice and for the most part, you got a debate about sailing schools! I see that you are relatively new on the forum. Please understand that there are certain topics that come up from time to time that are dear to members and the commentary spirals into an ongoing debate. Some topics that generate a never ending debate include best anchors (thanks Mike Honcho!) , anchor swivels vs no swivels, sail training, and many others! Somewhere in the contents of the debate, you will find answers to your question!
I have taken many of the courses discussed, including USCG auxiliary, most of the US Power Squadron courses, Nautic Ed, Several ASA courses, private sailing school courses, and I have a library of sailing books. Some were better than others. Bottom line is that all of the courses were beneficial; I have learned and gained knowledge from all of these sources including SBO forums. The courses that included on water experiences with seasoned instructors following an organized curriculum that included standards to be achieved, were the most beneficial.
After all of my efforts, time and expenses in completing these courses, I consider myself an average sailor. Yes, I have the certifications; however, I could care less about that. I only want to aquire the knowledge so that I have fun sailing in a safe manner and know what to do when the stuff hits the fan! Still learning after all these years.

 

[Serenity on Hudson]

If you haven't learned something every day, check the obituaries!

 

[agprice22]

By the way, no certificate, degree, or license is worth a dime if you can’t back it up with skill. Schools educate. Skills are learned in practice. I had to do 2 years of internship and 6 years of supervised clinical work before I was fully qualified. I have been sailing since I was 6, and I am still unskilled in more areas than otherwise, but I know that. I do not expect to learn skills from a school. I also do not begrudge a school its need to have an income.

 

[dlochner]

Geez guys and ladies, is it a sin to be in business to make a profit? ASA schools are somewhat like franchises in that the training facilities use ASA course and testing materials to train students. There's overhead for the course materials, bricks & mortar facility, cost of the training boats, marketing, and manpower. Do you really think these business owners should bust their tails and invest quite a bit of capital and not turn a profit, just because they are teaching sailing!!! What's wrong with trying to make a profit??? Colgate, ASA, Nautic ED and other private training facilities do the same.

My concerns are not with making a profit, done fairly with a good business model, it is what capitalism should be about. With that said, the ASA business model is, from my point of view problematic.

Compare ASA with Colgate's Offshore Sailing School.

OSC founder Steve Colgate was a Olympic sailor, America Cup sailor and has recently been inducted into the Sailing Hall of Fame.

ASA was founded by Lenny Shabes who got his start with a video store, founded ASA in 1983, and in addition to running ASA, is a TV producer.

Folks who complete OSC programs receive certifications from an independent organization, US Sailing, the governing body of competitive sailing in the US.

Folks who complete ASA programs receive certifications from ASA based on, well, ASA standards.

OSC has several schools, all owned and operated by OSC.

ASA schools are essentially franchises. The online promotional material for potential school owners emphasizes the marketing value of being an ASA school. Since ASA schools are franchises, there is probably less oversight by the parent organization. Does ASA have the staff to monitor the performance of 300+ schools?

If you were a neophyte sailor or a wannabe sailor which program ASA or OSC might be a better value and a better experience? A franchise sold by a TV Producer or a Program run by an experienced sailor?

 

[agprice22]

I get your point, but you suggest that a non-sailor cannot direct an excellent sailing education business with a meaningful curriculum. That simply has no basis in reality other than your opinion.
By the way, you don’t say whether the TV producer sails, not that it matters. Ted Turner ran a TV company. Would you say he was a sailor? Do you have a day job?
I think you would probably do a respectable job of creating a curriculum. Would you have to be able to perform EVERY skill perfectly before you launched the school, or would you hire instructors who were pros?
Considering the schools are run by actual sailors, not the TV producer, I think either one could have good or bad instructors. I am sure Steve monitors his business. But are you getting taught only by Steve? No. These days, there is plenty of public opinion available to determine whether an instructor or school is good.
We found our school by good reviews and experiences of people we knew. Our instructor was skilled, had loads of knowledge and experience to pass on, and drilled us carefully and with awareness of our progress and needs. The tests were useful, required study, and were graded and reviewed. Our instructor was a sailor who had been a captain in many roles. We had the luxury of reserving the boat for just ourselves, so we got ALL the instruction and practice, resulting in new skills.
Your opinion is just that. I have taken the ASA courses, and I would take more. I am NOT interested in classroom-only learning. I want to watch it done in real-world conditions.

 

[DrJudyB]

I'm rather partial to OCSC sailing school on San Francisco Bay.
https://ocscsailing.com/

At OCSC the conditions are far more challenging than you'll find anywhere else in the country, the curriculum is demanding the instructors are generally highly skilled, and the boats range from 24 feet to 80(!) feet. On SF Bay,you can sail in 25+ knots several days per week, in our windy season.

OCSC is a US Sailing School. They charge more than the ASA schools on San Francsico Bay, but they give you twice the time on the water as the other local schools. .

You can do a short evalluation session on the water with them, and they will place you in the appropriate course. will let you skip the basic courses if you already have mastered the skills.

On a different note, let me say that I think it's a great idea to go to a sailing school with your sailing partner or spouse, because you both learn the same skills and learn a standardized way of communicating. Even though I'd been sailing since I was 8 years old, my husband and I decided to take a course at OCSC together two years after we married. He learned a lot... and so did I. We now sail together better as a couple.

 

[dlochner]

I get your point, but you suggest that a non-sailor cannot direct an excellent sailing education business with a meaningful curriculum. That simply has no basis in reality other than your opinion.

Actually that is not my point. My point is that a conflict of interest is present in the ASA business/certification model.

ASA develops the standards.
ASA provides the certificate.
ASA trains the instructors.

So far, it is essentially the same as the US Sailing model and the old Red Cross program.

ASA sells the right to be called an ASA school.
ASA schools sell certification programs to make money, that's their business.
ASA profits from happy students who earn certifications.
ASA markets the certifications as something useful and valuable for sailors.
ASA evaluates the success of their own program; this is where the conflict starts.

Suppose ASA conducts an evaluation of their programs and finds decreasing numbers of people are passing certification tests. If students are failing, fewer students will recommend their courses, leading to a declining enrollment leading to declining profits. So, they have to do something or go out of business.

The reason for student failure can be broadly grouped into 3 areas, poor students, inadequate instruction, the standards are too stringent, or some combination of all these factors. ASA has little control over the students that enroll in the class and they would not want to increase their admission standards because that would reduce the pool of paying customers. That leaves one of two choices, improve instruction by modifying the materials and/or training the instructors or changing/lowering the standards. Which one is going to lead to greater profits with the least effort and expense?

ASA controls the certification standards, the instruction methods, and the evaluation measures and it profits from selling the certificates. There is no independent evaluation of any component, this presents a conflict of interest. There is no accountability except to the bottom line. And profit is a strong motivator to take the cheapest and easiest way to deal with any problems. This, by the way, is not just an issue with ASA and sailing schools, it is a significant issue in world of post-secondary for profit colleges and trade schools. It is also an issue with for profit charter schools. But those are topics for another forum.

Andrew, you and I both have certifications/licenses that allow us to earn a living. We don't get to tell NY what the certification standards are, we have to be accountable to state for meeting the initial and ongoing requirements to maintain our certifications/licenses. There was a time in my career where I had degrees and training equivalent to an MSW, however, I couldn't get a license because I didn't meet the LCSW standards. If I could, I would have changed the standards and in doing so would have made more money and had better benefits.

Therein lies the other point I've been trying to make, in order for certifications to have meaning and value, the certifications need to have some external validation that is independent of the training program that issued the certificate.

A judge once told me, "It is always best to avoid the appearance of impropriety." I am not making any assertions about ASA's actual practices or the value of their instruction, however, I don't think they have meet the standard of avoiding the appearance of impropriety.

 

[Jackdaw]

Does anyone have knowledge of someone actually failing an ASA (or US sailing) certification test-out?

 

[tmleadr03]

On a different note, let me say that I think it's a great idea to go to a sailing school with your sailing partner or spouse, because you both learn the same skills and learn a standardized way of communicating. Even though I'd been sailing since I was 8 years old, my husband and I decided to take a course at OCSC together two years after we married. He learned a lot... and so did I. We now sail together better as a couple.

This is one of my main reasons for signing up for a school. To do it with my girlfriend. We both can sail. And our goal isn't speed, its to enjoy the trip. And to take the "road" less traveled.

 

[tmleadr03]

tmleadr,
I must apologize to you. You asked a simple question for advice and for the most part, you got a debate about sailing schools! I see that you are relatively new on the forum. Please understand that there are certain topics that come up from time to time that are dear to members and the commentary spirals into an ongoing debate. Some topics that generate a never ending debate include best anchors (thanks Mike Honcho!) , anchor swivels vs no swivels, sail training, and many others! Somewhere in the contents of the debate, you will find answers to your question!
I have taken many of the courses discussed, including USCG auxiliary, most of the US Power Squadron courses, Nautic Ed, Several ASA courses, private sailing school courses, and I have a library of sailing books. Some were better than others. Bottom line is that all of the courses were beneficial; I have learned and gained knowledge from all of these sources including SBO forums. The courses that included on water experiences with seasoned instructors following an organized curriculum that included standards to be achieved, were the most beneficial.
After all of my efforts, time and expenses in completing these courses, I consider myself an average sailor. Yes, I have the certifications; however, I could care less about that. I only want to aquire the knowledge so that I have fun sailing in a safe manner and know what to do when the stuff hits the fan! Still learning after all these years.

It is the same in all forums. And in all things where there is a passion for it. I like the conversation and enjoy reading the back and forth. Both sides have good points. I have gotten quite a few different avenues to progress down when it comes to schooling. And for every one of the people saying school doesn't teach you enough, my girlfriend and I will be continuing our sailing trips together as well.

This looking for a school isn't to replace actually getting on the water and sailing, but to complement that experience and increase our knowledge base so we are better sailers.

 

[BigEasy]

Does anyone have knowledge of someone actually failing an ASA (or US sailing) certification test-out?

Yes, one of the owners / captains where I took ASA courses, as well as chartered with them for 6 years, told me of instances where they failed students who didn't take the courses seriously. He also mentioned that they would bend over backwards to tutor students who tried and didn't complete the standards satisfactorily by allowing them to sit in on future courses (same course level) or would get them to do "on water" sessions privately at no additional costs to bring them up to the standards that the school established in conjunction with ASA. So to answer your question, no one got a free pass because they paid the fees.
Even though I had been sailing several years and owned a 33 foot boat, I learned quite a bit from these guys in several ASA courses. I would highly recommend the curriculum and school.

 

[DrJudyB]

Does anyone have knowledge of someone actually failing an ASA (or US sailing) certification test-out?

Yes. I have personal knowlege of some one failing a certification test-out.

When my husband took his Basic Cruising course at OCSC on San Francisco Bay, 20 years ago, there were a total of three students and an instructor on board his keelboat, a J24. It was my husband, plus a father and daughter as students. The daughter passed the on-the-water practical test. The father didn't pass.

OCSC has a "guarantee". If you don't pass the on the water part of the Basic Keel Boat or Basic Cruising courses, you can come back for 60 days for more time on the water. Some restrictions apply, but that's the jist of it. IIRC , the guarantee is good for just Basic Keelboat and Basic Cruising courses taught on boats under 30'. It doesn't apply to Bareboat Cruising which is taught boats over 30 feet with inboads and wheel steering. You'd have to call them for the details but it's a good deal.

OCSC has a very large charter fleet, and they want to make money chartering them out. They want people who have the skills to take them out without damaging the boats or injuring crew. They have a financial interest in creating a community of good skippers who charter the boats on a repeating basis.

 

[jmce1587]

As an ASA instructor, yes I have failed students for poor scores on written test And also inability to grasp basic sailing principles while on the water. As Big Easy said, ASA instructors will work extra with individuals (school dependent) in order to have them successful and ultimately help them meet their goal of learning to sail and enjoy the sport we all love.

 

[rgranger]

Some topics that generate a never ending debate include best anchors (thanks Mike Honcho!) , anchor swivels vs no swivels, sail training, and many others!

1. What is the best bottom paint...
2. What boat should I buy...
3. Is this boat capable of blue water sailing...
4. Can I use automotive bulbs in my navigation lights...

 

[agprice22]

Look, you can confabulate all day. So can I. I simply disagree with your assertion that sailing schools in general, and ASA in particular, are worthless.
I have my ASA experience to back up my opinion. Our captain challenged us to do things we had never done before, and he expected us to get it right. He made my wife and I run the MOB drill many times over two days in low winds and high. He made us tell him our plan and back it up with reasons before we could untie, deploy sails, tack, douse sails, motor, etc. He made us read paper charts and a plotter, plan routes, determine departure and arrival times, plan fuel use over multiple legs. We learned to read ATNs, use instruments, write daily logs, and plan mooring entry and departure. We did this in the Winter in the BVIs where the wind was 25 kts daily. He asked is to beat our way up channels.
We learned to use every system on the boat and to safely sail a 41 Beneteau.
Sorry. I just do not see how all this makes sailing schools or ASA and its associated sailing schools wrong or worthless.
I agree with you that sailing makes the sailor. Sorry. I just cannot agree that ASAs model makes them worthless. My experience was simply too positive.

 

[dlochner]

Look, you can confabulate all day. So can I. I simply disagree with your assertion that sailing schools in general, and ASA in particular, are worthless.

Andrew, I have no idea what you are talking about. Confabulate? Here I am confused, the definition of confabulate is: 1) to talk informally; 2) to hold a discussion; 3) to fill in memory gaps by fabrication. If you are referring to the first 2 definitions, I guess I am guilty as charged, but then everyone who posted on the thread is guilty of confabulating. If you are using the third definition, the psychiatric definition, I fail to see how I have confabulated or related anything that might be ascribed to memory and fabrication. Please enlighten me if I have.

I did not say sailing schools are worthless. I did say that the model ASA uses has issues worth considering.

Sorry. I just do not see how all this makes sailing schools or ASA and its associated sailing schools wrong or worthless.
I agree with you that sailing makes the sailor. Sorry. I just cannot agree that ASAs model makes them worthless. My experience was simply too positive.

I never said sailing schools are worthless. I did say that after a sailor develops a certain level of competency there are other ways of learning and developing skills besides enrolling in a class and that those methods might be as or more effective than spending time and money on a class.

Again, I did not say sailing schools or ASA schools in particular are worthless. I have suggested that the certifications, especially the ASA certifications are less valuable than ASA would like you to believe. I have said that ASA's model does not provide for independent third party accountability.

I have not said that anyone's experience in an ASA or any other class might not be valuable to that person or that they might not have gained knowledge from participating in the class. I have questioned the value of the certifications earned from sailing schools, in particular ASA's certification.

If you and your wife had a positive experience with an ASA school, that's wonderful, it was money and time well spent. That experience leads you to a different opinion and viewpoint than I have, and that is perfectly fine. However, please do not mischaracterize what I have said. If the logic of my opinion is faulty, please elucidate and point out where the logic fails. I'm ready to listen and learn. If you don't follow the logic, please ask, I am more than willing to clarify my thoughts.