Sailing schooling

Aug 30, 2018
74
SouthCoast 26 Denver CO
I have a bit of experience sailing as does my girlfriend. But all of our instruction is informal at best. Even for me and I was on the USNA Prep school sailing team and sailed on the N44s at the academy. But no certification or anything. My girlfriend has sailed with her family on the sea of Cortez and on many lakes. But not formal training either. I want to firm up both of our knowledge base and I find that getting on common ground for language is a really good thing when things are moving fast.

In Denver there is a school that does ASA 101, 103, and 104. Though you have to travel to SoCal for the 104 hands on class. Gee that sounds horrible... Having to coastal sail around San Diego...

But I don't know anything about sailing schools or certifications or anything like that. I would like to eventually work up to being qualified for bigger boats then a 26 ft trailer sailer. What other courses are there? Are they national/international recognized? What should I look for in a school or class?
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,319
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I may be a contrarian (I've been accused of worse) but I think sailing schools and courses are a rip-off. There is no substitute for experience and self-reliance. What will you do when something happens that wasn't covered in a class?

Basic sailing skills can be learned in a couple of hours, afterwards it will take a lifetime. That's the appeal of sailing, it is always an intellectual, personal, and physical challenge.

For the most part, big boats sail the same way little boats do. There are a few obvious differences, the biggest being the mass of a larger sailboat and momentum. Something that is taught in HS physics classes. The real art of sailing is finding the solution to novel problems and that only comes from experience and a willingness to experiment (and the stuff you would have learned in HS physics if your guidance counselor had encouraged you to take the course).

If you know how to tack and jibe, the rest is experience, both real and vicarious. Some of the YouTubers out there spend some time talking about skill sets. Find them, watch the videos and get out on your boat and sail in all conditions.

And be prepared for a lot of WTF do I do now moments. They are the ones you learn from.
 
Jan 22, 2008
296
Islander Freeport, 41 Ketch Longmont, CO
The group teaching sailing in the Denver area that teaches out of Carter Lake is actually pretty good and provides background and sailing skills to the ASA certifications. I personally know some of the instructors and they have both good teaching styles as well as a wealth of sailing knowledge. Of course nothing beats sailing in San Diego or the BVI's where similar courses are offered.
My experience is with a group called OCSC in Berkley where I took many of my basic sailing classes many years ago. All of these courses will provide basic foundational knowledge to begin your sailing career. They provide the book work and hands-on instruction but you still need to practice it and put it to good use on your boat.
I now have a USCG 100 ton masters license but it all started with an ASA course many years ago.

Good luck and fair winds,

Captain Victor Hoisington
SV/French Temper
Islander 41 Freeport
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
When I worked for one of the national sailing schools, I was pretty impressed with their onboard curriculum, but we parted ways because of the "cookie cutter" style of teaching.
I believe some of us learn better in a class and others by experience. If you've got the bread and learn better in a school, well, that's your choice.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
You can learn to do anything by yourself - play golf, shoot baskets, fly a plane (not advised), drive a shift car. Anyway, I could go on and on but most of you get what I mean. Most folks who learn by themselves will never progress beyond the lower intermediate level of play - some will never progress past beginner or give up the sport of sailing entirely. Qualified (key word) coaches/instructor make the learning experience easier. You have to be diligent in the selection of a school and more importantly in your assigned instructor. Does anyone think that learning to sail by themselves would be better than having Jackdaw show up at their boat and taking them out for an afternoon sail? If they do then this discussion should be over.

Here's the problem with learning to sail a boat over 30' by yourself. There are 8 sail trim controls for the main and 6 for the jib and they all have to work together for 100% efficiency. Then there's trim sequence and the sail trim adjustment changes for each point of sail and wind condition and much more. Anyone who tells the average beginner sailor he can learn all this stuff by themselves is talking through his or her hat.

Learning to sail a boat by experience can be dangerous -- your 1st experience might be your last not only for you but the folks on board with you.
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,723
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
I did a 3-day charter class, and upon completion was able to charter a boat from the company. I did that at first, but like tinkering with things and ended up buying my own boat.

I think the class helped some, but as @dlochner said, nothing beats being out there on your own and learning on YOUR boat.

Good luck!

Greg
 
May 27, 2004
1,964
Hunter 30_74-83 Ponce Inlet FL
Hey Don...
In 1978 I tried to 'teach' myself out of a nasty slice on the golf course.
In 1979 I bought SV Intuition!
I don't slice anymore, except onions that is.
Now I sail.
:cowbell::laugh:
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,319
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Most folks who learn by themselves will never progress beyond the lower intermediate level of play - some will never progress past beginner or give up the sport of sailing entirely.
This is what my HS English teacher would call a glittering generality. There are many, many highly competent sailors who have learned on the fly and by learning from experienced sailors who have never taken any sailing course. Adhering to this position contributes to the mystique of sailing, a mystique that is ultimately harmful to the sport.

Qualified (key word) coaches/instructor make the learning experience easier. You have to be diligent in the selection of a school and more importantly in your assigned instructor. Does anyone think that learning to sail by themselves would be better than having Jackdaw show up at their boat and taking them out for an afternoon sail?
These statements are logically disconnected. In any endeavor a student will always benefit from being with someone who is more experienced and skilled, that's what mentorship is about. Will a novice sailor get mentorship from an ASA or US Sailing instructor? Probably not, the instructor will collect the fees and move on to the next class.

While spending an afternoon or three with @Jackdaw sailing will no doubt provide a lot of learning, that is not what you will get from an ASA sailing course. That kind of experience comes from connecting with experienced sailors and spending time sailing with them. I would argue that one of the best ways to become a more proficient sailor is to spend time on the Wednesday Beer Can races with a competent sailor. Having spent sometime as crew with competent racing sailors, I have also found them lacking in basic seamanship skills.

Here's the problem with learning to sail a boat over 30' by yourself. There are 8 sail trim controls for the main and 6 for the jib and they all have to work together for 100% efficiency. Then there's trim sequence and the sail trim adjustment changes for each point of sail and wind condition and much more. Anyone who tells the average beginner sailor he can learn all this stuff by themselves is talking through his or her hat.
Have you been drinking Stuart Walker's Kool-Aid? If there is any book that would deter wannabe sailors from taking up the sport, it would be his Manual of Sail Trim.

If you want to learn to sail, find someone to teach you the basics, tacking, gybing, and steering. Then get a boat and go sail. Sail with and against more experienced sailors, ask questions, read (don't bother with Walker's books), and sail. Mostly go sail.

The ASA certification racket is driven by charter and insurance companies. After sailing for 50+ years in boats from 8' to 38' if a charter company wants me to produce an ASA certificate, they won't get my business. And frankly, it only takes about 5 minutes to know if a prospective charter knows what he or she is talking about when they step aboard the boat.

Learning to sail a boat by experience can be dangerous -- your 1st experience might be your last not only for you but the folks on board with you.
These kind of statements drive people away from sailing. Sailing is an exceptionally safe sport, so long as you don't count bruises and scrapes among the injuries.

If we want to have a sustainable sport, we need to make sailing accessible. Don, with all due respect, your statements don't do that.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Some very interesting opinions on here. Some more informed than others, but all are from a single sailor's personal perspective. Nothing wrong with that! We are here, in part, to collect those perspectives and somehow synthesize an objective plan.
Of course a body can learn to sail without a formal course, I dare say, most world cruisers have done it that way. Of course having an experienced sailor show you how, will make some things easier or quicker to learn. The certification programs are a racket, but they have an element of necessity in them too. If you want to charter, a course will open that door. If you want to race, there will be no better path to success than with an experienced coach. If you like to tinker and explore on your own, go out and do it. If a situation comes up that the coach or the course hadn't covered, you aren't worse off having those pieces behind you. Often it is confidence that those certifications are the most valuable for having.
I'm sorry tmleadr03, I can't help recommend a course. I learned from one of the best cruising sailors I ever knew, my dad, and he from reading, talking and doing. I am interested in taking a course myself. My interest stems solely from a desire to bareboat in exotic locations. I feel like I sail well enough for my purposes otherwise.
It is most important to have a clear understanding of your own limitations and experience, then approach those limits with eyes open. Don't be fearless, that's just stupidity. Be courageous, understand your fear and do it anyhow, but have a plan.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
A person asks a perfectly legitimate question...… he wants to know more about sailing schools.... because he's the kind of guy that wants formal instruction. Then the very first respondent gets on the soap box about why he thinks sailing schools are a waste of time. Very uncool...……. dude, if you have something to contribute, give it up.... but don't troll the thread or the posters because you don't like sailing schools. I especially take offense to your comments towards Don....

tmleadr03 You have enough experience to be a valuable addition to a race crew... look into that and you may find a network of support that will lead you to the extended formal education you desire.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,319
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
A person asks a perfectly legitimate question...… he wants to know more about sailing schools.... because he's the kind of guy that wants formal instruction. Then the very first respondent gets on the soap box about why he thinks sailing schools are a waste of time. Very uncool...……. dude, if you have something to contribute, give it up.... but don't troll the thread or the posters because you don't like sailing schools. I especially take offense to your comments towards Don....

tmleadr03 You have enough experience to be a valuable addition to a race crew... look into that and you may find a network of support that will lead you to the extended formal education you desire.
Joe, sorry you took offense at my comments, while I am not one to shy away from controversy or having an opinion, I do not troll or bait others.

The essence of the OPs questions was "I have some skills, I want to improve them. How can I do that? Are sailing schools worthwhile?" The short version of my answer was "Get out and sail and sail with people who are more skilled than you." If accused of providing answers in context, I will plead guilty. It is as important to know the reasoning behind an answer as it is to know the answer. Real learning happens when the answer and the why are both known.

I am highly critical of systems and beliefs which deter people from becoming sailors. The whole ASA certification system is one of those systems that places obstacles to becoming a sailor. It leads to a belief that in order to be competent one must have multiple certifications and courses. That just isn't so. And it works to the detriment of our sport.

It is perhaps ironic, that in spite of your objections to my posts, we gave the OP essentially the same advice, "go sailing."
 
Apr 11, 2018
71
Hunter 340 Dowry Creek, NC
Like other forms of academics, the purpose of sailing courses is to provide accreditation, not education. If you want to charter a boat, you have to present credentials. A growing number of political jurisdictions require them as well. The only way to learn to sail is by sailing, but to do some things in it you have no choice but to become certified.

There's a spectrum of opinion on the value of the system. The extremes of that opinion on both ends, as with other subjects, tend to the fanatical, and unfortunately fanatics' arguments (especially on the Internet where the moderating condition of real life contact is absent) tend toward personalization and condemnation of disagreement. That's too bad. It keeps forums like this from reaching their potential.

My own views on it are close to dlochner's. Nonetheless it's the system in place today, so we have to work with it as best we can. That doesn't mean any one of us has to like it, just that he has to accommodate it. My understanding is that any sailing school you would want as a credentialing agent will be able to provide you, in the end, with an ICC. Once you've got that then you can go out and actually learn to sail anywhere you like.
 
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dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,370
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
No one has mentioned the Coast Guard courses. The Coast Guard offers a wide range of courses that cover a huge range of subjects, many you will not need unless you plan to become a professional. There is the so called 6 pack certification that gives you license to carry 6 paying customers. Quite sure that will also give you the required documentation to rent charter boats, but I have never chartered so I don't know first hand.

So for the original question, it depends upon what skills are wanted to be picked up. The coast guard gives courses in navigation, radio operation, much more. If any of those subjects are desired, those courses are good.

If you want to learn to sail, what kind of sailing? Off shore? Racing? General skills honing? If interested in off-shore, I'd recommend going with one of the several sailors that offer space on their boat while doing a particular sailing leg that they are taking. This will give you direct real ocean sailing experience with a professional that does this all the time. This is an expensive option but excellent.

If you are interested in racing, get involved with a racing group and go crew with some of them. That will give you direct racing experience.

If you are interested in honing sailing skills, then some of the many courses available may be useful, but the caveat is it depends upon your current skill level. If you have limited skills, then these may be good for you, despite the "racket" implied by others. While that is the case to a degree, they do offer a systematic structure that helps with terminology and a pretty good broad base of common information. How good they are for learning sailing technique depends a bit on the instructor and the other students you end up sharing the class with. But it does provide a good base.

If you have developed skills but wish to expand, you will likely do best to find some skilled sailor to sail with that can help you with things you wish to figure out.

Just my 2 cents worth.

dj
 
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
To answer the question, I think those ASA courses would teach you a little. You have 101 in your pocket if you can sail a boat. 103 will be more info about bigger boat systems, and 104 will really get you out sailing. They are NOT going to teach you the fine points of trim. This is not a course to teach you how to make a boat go fast. The boat will be a comfortable boat for families vacationing. They will teach you to PLAN. They will teach you to navigate. They will teach you to preserve equipment, so you do not ruin your charter vacation with a breakdown. Our ASA instructor was very good. I had been sailing a long time, and ASA taught me the things I wanted to prepare for bigger boats, motors, and electric, water, and plumbing.
Did it make me better at sailing a boat? No. It gave me a lot of information and experience in a short time under the guidance of a good teacher. Further, it increased my wife’s confidence.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I would like to eventually work up to being qualified for bigger boats then a 26 ft trailer sailer.
In what way do you mean, "qualified for bigger boats"? You are qualified when you feel comfortable. My family moved aboard a 56' schooner after sailing a 21' daysailer. No formal training. If you want to own, easy as writing a check. If you want to charter, either hand the charter company you're cert or convince them you have experience with sailing, hand them your log and talk sailor with them. If you want to race, I'm sure your local YC will be happy to train you on the job. Have fun. There are no certifications that guarentee advanced skills. If it's just a matter of learning the common language of sailing, a certification program will give you just what you put into it. Not a bad way to go, but not strictly necessary either.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I think Sailing Schools of course have a place. But you have to remember, most students spend at most 4 days at them. Thats not a lot of time. Image your 15 year-old kid taking 4 days of drivers ed. How much do you trust their driving capabilities? Ideally, the formalized instruction you get there would be a complement to incremental on-the-water learning and experience.

Doing an ASA 101/104 locally on a small boat is a great start... But the next step of competence HAS to be getting hours in ('tiller time') applying that knowledge, and building muscle memory. There is no substitute for incremental learning. If you don't own a boat take the leap and get a small one. Join a boat club. Crew on race boats. Anything. Ideally by the time you do 104, you should possess a fair amount of sailing skills, and use the opportunity to get the answers to the questions YOU have created, and not just drink from the firehose of stuff they think you need to know. Frankly I think the most dangerous sailor in the world is the guy/gal who goes out for a long weekend and gets an ASA 101/103/104 bareboat cert from a certification factory, and now thinks that they can 'sail'. I know a few that have done this and I would not trust them to take my boat across the marina.

Probably the most internationally recognized is the ICC, not just from a charter perspective, but it is globally accepted operators certificate where they are required.
 
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