Sailing and the environment

[Carol]

Tom, I'm with you!

Big headache.........sailing relieves the pressure, of course we don't leave a trace. Some things are so, without being said.Smooth Sailing!

 

[Doug Currie]

pollution at sea

The fact that you are talking about the subjectindicates to me that the battle is part won. Port a potties and a couple of five gallon plastic drums for the grey water will help with on-board waste. For those sailers who need anti-foul there are slow and low leaching paints available. I feel that the important thing about marine pollution (or any other for that matter) is for us to stop and think ; am I harming the environment by what I am doing and is there another way to do this. Remember the parable about small acorns? Best of luck in your efforts.

 

[Rick D]

HOW Did I Miss This Thread? Hey, John..

..are you going to have Phil carry the book? Anyhow, it was a serious effort and good luck. Remember that change is incremental, and I've often gotten plenty mad before doing what's good for me.And, Jack, your point about us being pretty careful in general is also well taken. Having just returned from a 5K road trip through 12 states, I'd have to say we are pretty good about keeping the trash contained. (It still galls me when I walk near my mountain home and see the junk people just toss out their windows, tho.) I remember when we were in Mexico and I was impressed how little litter was on the raodside... until we came upon an area where there had been a fire. We could see that there were bottles every foot and every other type of debris. It had just been covered up by the lush vegitation. Anyhow, I think being aware and doing what we can as boaters to protect our recreational area is reasonable. We also need to appreciate that 'what is reasonable' changes over time and that change comes from people who advocate. And that is tempered by people who challenge their assertions. Noisy and irritating, but a good system.Over and out... Rick D.

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

Activism versus passivism, not left versus right

would seem to be the real issue in this environmental discussion. I never met one sailor who would rather live in a polluted marina or anchorage than in a clean one and few if any who think our worldwide marine environment is getting any cleaner. At the same time, I never met more than two sailors (usually husband and wife)who fully agreed about the best type of anchor or storm tactic. So, I have no illusion about finding broad agreement about the best approach towards protecting our environment either.IMHO, none of the above has much to do with the political right or the political left. Rather, it is about differences between people who are trying to solve their problems and those who prefer to keep sitting on their most photogenic assets.I can respect everyone who comes up with a typical leftwing (e.g. increased government regulation or taxes) or rightwing (e.g. self-help neighborhood dog poop shovel brigade) idea and then puts the necessary energy in to see that idea through. However, I find it very difficult to take anyone serious who argues that Okefenoki swamp chicken farmers, or even whales and dolphins, aren’t doing their part either.Since when do sailors care what others do or don’t do? Aren’t we supposed to have a little bit off the Webb Chiles “Egregious” spirit running through our veins? Or are we getting way too strongly attuned to what others think of our vessels, our sailing capabilities, our political correctness (left or right) and the size of our wallet?The further one sails away from home the fewer sailors one encounters who are clearly identifiable with the political left or right; and none at all who prefer to sit in chicken harbor and take their cues from sitcoms, political show hosts and talking heads. If a couple or cruising vessels and their crews happen to meet in a remote anchorage and find the beach polluted with a bit of trash, chances are they will make sure to leave it behind cleaner than they found it without anyone even asking who made that mesh in the first place. Sorry for the rant. However, I strongly believe that cleaning up the environment should be just as natural as breathing or picking your nose. Have fun!Flying Dutchman

 

[Brad]

Henk's pontificating jibberish !!

It seems that mentioning Webb Chiles, who has a questionable story of the sinking of RESURGAM, puts your beach cleaning thesis into questionable credibility.Are you suggesting that those who sail are the superior of the species?

 

[Phil Herring]

Strike two

Guys, please. Personal attacks have to cease or the thread will come down. ph.

 

[Tom]

No Henk...Its about putting things in perspective

I agree with much of what you said. I really believe that sailboaters are probably many times more environmentally concious than most people. I agree that most boaters where they can want to "do the right thing" environmentally and yes we like to be in pristine waters and at clean beaches. Obviously in enclosed Harbors where there is very little tidal flush and no municipality dumping we are our own worse enemy, but that is the only instance where we affect the waters to any large extent(re: Great Salt Pond-Block Island, Avalon Harbor-Catalina, etc) But our arguments is that those who wish to impose harsh sanctions upon the few boaters out there, are looking and attacking the 1% of the problems and ignoring the 99% !!! Impose all the sanctions you want on the poor powerless boaters, but its not going to amount to a "hill of beans" unless there is some real "bite" against the large offenders like municipalities throughtout the coastal US, industries (need I bring up GE and the Hudson river) & 3rd world nations. We are a 'nit' compared to all the true polluters out there, so everyone needs to put things back into perspective. And I, for one (as a sailboater), am getting tired of carrying the un-real burden of fault for the world polluted waters.

 

[MArk]

What a wonderful world

Henk,I agree. If everyone would just leave things a little better than they found them, this world would be a more wonderful place.Happy (fusion powered) sails *_/),MArk

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

Tom, if it really bothers us

that there are much bigger polluters than we sailors are, we probably should start doing more about that than we are doing now. There are plenty of ways one can become active in this area.I just don't understand why I should stop cleaning up my mess because someone else is not. Like many cruisers I know, I like to do what I personally think needs to be done. As long as I am not being a nuisance to others I don't see why I should care a hell of beans whether everyone else wants to do the same thing or not.Flying Dutchman

 

[John Nantz]

Cruise Ship Dumps 40 tons In Strait Juan de Fuca

And while we're puting everything into a little holding tank a cruise ship .... well, makes a mess! And the captain says "he doesn't believe it was illegal!"The new paper article says there are "conflicting opinions" whether these [the Strait] are open seas or territorial waters".(!!)I can't believe it! If it was my boat the Coast Guard would be all over me in a milisecond!And I have to pay taxes to support pump out stations and one "boat" has an "accident" that puts more crap into our waters than probably all the sailboats in Puget Sound would do in an entire year.Doesn't the Coast Guard ever check their Y-valve or gate valve to ensure it is in the closed position and locked? (they do on my boat).Grrrrr...

 

[Tom]

Henk I agree. But the lobbyists in Washington

have much deeper pockets and poltical clout.But have faith, grass roots efforts works once in a while !....Finally the government went after GE to clean up the Hudson and won in court (amazing). I guess the "big bad profitable" company was an easy target.Lets see the government clean up its *own* mess by making municipalities and states fix their problems.....

 

[Phil Herring]

Follow-up: 40 tons

I was perplexed to hear that the CG or state, one of the two, decided that no laws had been broken! Come again??

 

[Clyde]

Jurisdictional bickering between feds and state.

This has been going on for a long time. As far as the US Coast Guard is concerned, open water is three miles from any US shore. The state of Washington doesn’t consider the Straits of Juan de Fuca as open waters; it considers the Straits of Juan de Fuca as a closed eco-system. The state of Washington considers the waters in the Straits of Juan de Fuca up to the international border with the Canadians as being state of Washington territorial waters and under the state of Washington Department of Ecology jurisdiction. The US Coast Guard considers the Norwegian cruise ship dumping legal, since it occurred four miles from US soil in the Straits of Juan de Fuca northwest of Port Townsend. Ironically, for political reasons, the US Coast Guard will not empty its holding tanks in the Straits of Juan de Fuca. Fair Winds.Clyde

 

[Peggie Hall/HeadMistress]

Only half the story...

I don't have the other half, so...Did the cruise ship dump TREATED waste or raw waste (do you even know)? If treated, then it broke no laws...neither did it endanger the environment. That's the whole poing of onboard waste treatment systems, and the systems for large vessels (vessels over 65') and for inspected vessels (commercial vessels including freighters, cruise ships etc) are required to treat to a MUCH higher standard than we are...in fact, the discharge from 'em is close to potable. But somebody says that somebody told him that somebody read in the paper that cruise ship dumped thousands of gallons of waste, and the knee-jerk reactionaries start screaming....<sigh>...

 

[Phil Herring]

According to the newspaper

...which is hardly an unimpeachable source, it was raw.

 

[John Nantz]

Only Have Part of the Facts Too....

With regard to the dumping, there is so much other "stuff" going on right now (local political stuff) I didn't have time to really dig into it to determine what "really" happened. Using a search engine and entering key words from the article I mentioned and linked to one can get lots of "hits". Phil.... you didn't put a *grin* thing at the end of your sentence;-) in the last reply - the "impecable newspaper source".Replacing the local "dumping news" is "sonar news": A US Navy ship returning to Puget Sound had their sonar turned up and was causing The Bremerton "Sun" in an article titled "NAVY SONAR INCIDENT ALARMS EXPERTS" reported "No injuries to marine mammals have been reported, but the same sonar has killed beaked whales in other areas."Part of the article on May 8, 2003 stated:Dozens of porpoises and killer whales seemed to stampede all at once Monday in response to a loud electronic noise echoing through the San Juan Islands.The noise, apparently sonar from the Navy guided-missile destroyer USS Shoup, was reported to be so loud that whale-watchers could hear it pinging through the hulls of their boats several miles away......Link: http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2003-05-08/local/142763.shtmlGuess my question would be "how would anyone know if there were any injuries to animals?" Talk to one? Sir, do you have any ringing in your ears? GezzzzThe problem is many of these animals use very sensitive hearing to detect "dinner" (i.e., food) or danger. It would seem (like, as in common sense) that a powerful sonar could be hazardous to the sensitive hearing on some of these creatures. Maybe the noise could cause permanent hearing loss and maybe that could be why the herds have really dimished?And the Orcas are again being considered for the Endangered list.

 

[John Nantz]

Ahooooga! Dive! Dive!

Attached is a picture of three mature humpbacks (about 35 tons - EACH!) just beginning a dive under our boat (Hunter 35 at just over 6 tons).Humpbacks are the only whale species to hunt as a team effort and these three were in "V" formation. We were watching them and then, all of a sudden, they just surfaced about four boat lengths off the beam and dove as the picture shows just a couple boat lengths away headed straight for us!!!! My wife was on the bow (with the camera)and I told her to HANG ON! while I did a white-knuckle thing holding onto the wheel. The sails were struck and the engine off so we were just drifting.The next picture (not provided) shows them surfacing on the other side of the boat (about 2 boat lengths away) with big plumes as they blew upwind (yuk - old fish breath!).We didn't feel a thing as they went under, not even a hint of current as might occur with their large flippers.These huge mammoths were really something to behold - and memories we'll have for a long time.

 

[Phil Herring]

John - where?

Where did that happen??

 

[John Nantz]

Map of Whale Sighting

Attached is a map (NOT TO BE USED FOR NAVIGATION) [anyone who does deserves to run aground!] showing where we saw the whales in the photo (prior post). Saw the Whales in Chatham Strait on the west side of Mansfield Peninsula (between Juneau and Icey Strait/Glacier Bay). The rest of the pod, about a dozen whales from juvenile to adult were "bubble fishing" about a half-mile away.Suspect these three were using their highly sensitive "sonar" to track down their food. By swiming in formation they probably give their quary less opportunity to escape.My wife told me that the female humpbacks are longer and more tonage than the males! (this valuable info brought to you via Google). [if you were a male whale you wouldn't want to get into a spat with your "wife"!]Chatham Strait was named after the "Chatham", the smaller of the two ships in Capt. George Vancouvers maping expedition. The Chatham was the workhorse going forward, along with the long boats, to map while the Discovery would lie at anchor. In the Kings Navy to run your ship aground and cause damage could be cause for court marshal, even if there were no charts! The charting of North America by Capt. Vancouver and company, from Olympia to Kodiak Island, was done in an astoundingly short period of only five years. How many surveryors and engineers could accomplish this feat, even with modern day instruments, in such a short time. Their work was impressive.There is also a Chatham Point on the east side of Vancouver Island which is a very key landmark which marks the separation of Seymour Narrows from Johnstone Strait.I tried to annotate the map with information but every time it it would boost the dpi to 300 or really increased the file size. Tried MS Paint, Adobe Photo, and Print Shop to no avail.

 

[Gary Wyngarden]

John, How Long?

John,Interesting story. How long did you spend on your trip up to Alaska and back?Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335BTW I'm also impressed with Captain Van's work