Let's face it, boats and maintaining them cost lossa lossa bucks. With regards to the initial purchase, at what point does a sailboats depreciation begin to slow. I am told that the first 5 years a new boat takes the greatest hit and after that point it slows down. Purchase a 20 year old vessel and it may require a complete refit and more money and then you are no further ahead. There is also the other school that says purchase a new higher quality boat (we know the ones) and they should hold better value with minimal depreciation. If you are getting into boating thinking that they hold their value then you are in for a surprise. Purchasing the right boat at the right time is. Comments....
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To purchase or not to purchase
If you purchase a boat as an investment, you need a new investment advisor. Buy what you like, knowing what you want to use it for, and compare what's available; ask for advice and opinions (this forum is good), then decide, go for it and enjoy. Don't buy looking to the day you'll sell. Not a boat anyway.
If you purchase a boat as an investment, you need a new investment advisor. Buy what you like, knowing what you want to use it for, and compare what's available; ask for advice and opinions (this forum is good), then decide, go for it and enjoy. Don't buy looking to the day you'll sell. Not a boat anyway.
Depends on boat
Many new boats, like almost all new cars, depreciate pretty quickly at first, then depreciation slows. Some high end boats, for which there may be a waiting list at the factory, can actually appreciate in the first year or so. Among used boats, those which were originally more expensive tend to keep their value better, if for no other reason than that there are fewer of them around. I'm sure a 1985 Sabre 30 sells for a higher percentage of its original price than does a 1985 Catalina 30, largely because there are so few 1985 Sabres for sale. But if you buy a 15 year old boat in reasonable condition and keep it up, you should be able to sell it for about what you paid for it. But boats in general are clearly not an investment. And the choice between, say a 75K new boat and a 75K used boat should primarily be based on the boat not the potential depreciation.
Many new boats, like almost all new cars, depreciate pretty quickly at first, then depreciation slows. Some high end boats, for which there may be a waiting list at the factory, can actually appreciate in the first year or so. Among used boats, those which were originally more expensive tend to keep their value better, if for no other reason than that there are fewer of them around. I'm sure a 1985 Sabre 30 sells for a higher percentage of its original price than does a 1985 Catalina 30, largely because there are so few 1985 Sabres for sale. But if you buy a 15 year old boat in reasonable condition and keep it up, you should be able to sell it for about what you paid for it. But boats in general are clearly not an investment. And the choice between, say a 75K new boat and a 75K used boat should primarily be based on the boat not the potential depreciation.
We found the banks opinion to probably be (+)
an accurate indicator. Being new to boat financing, we had a ton of questions--why 20% down, where does that come from? What we were told is the banks will count on the boat depreciating in the first couple years after purchase, so the 20% keeps you from going "upside down" on the loan if you decide to sell in the first couple years. Having said that, I tend to agree with the previous posts concerning relative value of the boat in question and availability. FWIW... Bill
an accurate indicator. Being new to boat financing, we had a ton of questions--why 20% down, where does that come from? What we were told is the banks will count on the boat depreciating in the first couple years after purchase, so the 20% keeps you from going "upside down" on the loan if you decide to sell in the first couple years. Having said that, I tend to agree with the previous posts concerning relative value of the boat in question and availability. FWIW... Bill
Haven't read the Wall Street Journal, have you?
Believe it or not, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal to the effect that investing in a sailboat is actually a better way to go than with some of the stocks on todays market! Having said that, go with your heart, not your investment broker! Bill on STARGAZER
Believe it or not, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal to the effect that investing in a sailboat is actually a better way to go than with some of the stocks on todays market! Having said that, go with your heart, not your investment broker! Bill on STARGAZER
I agree with the general comments,
Its interesting to note some boat prices after they settle down. Once a boat is used most tend to fall into a range of prices and level out there. (Some drop in price right away and some glide down to a stable level. Practical Sailors pricing charts help give you a good idea). So if you get a decent and fair price for a boat and spend a modicum of time and money to keep it in good condition you should be able to sell it for almost as much as you purchased it. I wouldn't compare it to auto's as they tend to steadily keep falling in price, unless its a specialty car or classic. On the other hand **NO WAY** would I consider it an investment or compare it to home ownership. But, I can tell you that for the last 5-6 years the prices of a used, but newer, Catalina 36 MKII's is not much less than the price of a new one. So much so, that I know literally dozens of people that were planning on buying a late model used C36MKII and ended purchasing a new one instead as it wasn't much more. The thing about the more expensive brand new boats is that they tend to lose more of their value the day they leave the dealership than some other boats. The simple reason is they are expensive boats, and if people are going to spend that kind of money, they usually have enough and want a new one. They are paying a premium for that priviledge and they are losing a higher percentage of their initial dollars spent for it. But, I do agree with the comment that the more expensive boats tend to hold onto a higher value and level out, but only **AFTER** they have their big initial price drop. So the bottom line is how much money do you intially put in, how much do you spend along the way and how much will you get back at the end. And it all depends on the boat and the point in its life cycle where its price "levels out". The best scenario is to get a boat right at the begining where its price levels and keep it in good shape, that way you should be able to recoup most of your money.
Its interesting to note some boat prices after they settle down. Once a boat is used most tend to fall into a range of prices and level out there. (Some drop in price right away and some glide down to a stable level. Practical Sailors pricing charts help give you a good idea). So if you get a decent and fair price for a boat and spend a modicum of time and money to keep it in good condition you should be able to sell it for almost as much as you purchased it. I wouldn't compare it to auto's as they tend to steadily keep falling in price, unless its a specialty car or classic. On the other hand **NO WAY** would I consider it an investment or compare it to home ownership. But, I can tell you that for the last 5-6 years the prices of a used, but newer, Catalina 36 MKII's is not much less than the price of a new one. So much so, that I know literally dozens of people that were planning on buying a late model used C36MKII and ended purchasing a new one instead as it wasn't much more. The thing about the more expensive brand new boats is that they tend to lose more of their value the day they leave the dealership than some other boats. The simple reason is they are expensive boats, and if people are going to spend that kind of money, they usually have enough and want a new one. They are paying a premium for that priviledge and they are losing a higher percentage of their initial dollars spent for it. But, I do agree with the comment that the more expensive boats tend to hold onto a higher value and level out, but only **AFTER** they have their big initial price drop. So the bottom line is how much money do you intially put in, how much do you spend along the way and how much will you get back at the end. And it all depends on the boat and the point in its life cycle where its price "levels out". The best scenario is to get a boat right at the begining where its price levels and keep it in good shape, that way you should be able to recoup most of your money.
Boats don't make economic sense. If you're
planning on buying a boat as an investment, don't waste your money.
planning on buying a boat as an investment, don't waste your money.
10 years
10 years old is where I believe most boats tend to stabilize in value. The main factors then become the condition to which they are maintained, the value of the owner's modifications and additional equipment installed, the manufacturers support of older models (Catalinas certainly have that edge), and the inherant popularity of the model to begin with. Like artwork, it's only worth what someone will pay you for it and you better enjoy looking at it (using it in a boat's case) if you put your money down to own it.
10 years old is where I believe most boats tend to stabilize in value. The main factors then become the condition to which they are maintained, the value of the owner's modifications and additional equipment installed, the manufacturers support of older models (Catalinas certainly have that edge), and the inherant popularity of the model to begin with. Like artwork, it's only worth what someone will pay you for it and you better enjoy looking at it (using it in a boat's case) if you put your money down to own it.
"The amount of use that a boat gets....
...is inversely proportional to its length." Ever since we bought our 1986 C34 in 1998, we have been working diligently and successfully to dispel that particular myth. I agree with both Tom's and Lauraine's comments, and wonder why this question got posted at all, but, in any event, just to add that most things nautical, especially in salt water, will deteriorate rapidly the LESS they are used. So, we sail every week, sometimes more than once, keep her shiny and looking and working good. Compared to some other boats that never move (you ALL have THEM in your harbors) WELL used and cared for boats will maintain their resale value. But, hell, I'm NOT in in for the money anyway
Stu
...is inversely proportional to its length." Ever since we bought our 1986 C34 in 1998, we have been working diligently and successfully to dispel that particular myth. I agree with both Tom's and Lauraine's comments, and wonder why this question got posted at all, but, in any event, just to add that most things nautical, especially in salt water, will deteriorate rapidly the LESS they are used. So, we sail every week, sometimes more than once, keep her shiny and looking and working good. Compared to some other boats that never move (you ALL have THEM in your harbors) WELL used and cared for boats will maintain their resale value. But, hell, I'm NOT in in for the money anyway
StuMy two cents
When I was shopping around for a boat, I knew that it made very good sense to buy a used one. But I ended up buying a new 2000 Hunter because the older boats simply did not have the good use of space and the huge space of the new Hunter cockpits. So it wasn't economics that drove my decision. Four years later, I am very happy with my boat and keep it up so it looks like new. ajp
When I was shopping around for a boat, I knew that it made very good sense to buy a used one. But I ended up buying a new 2000 Hunter because the older boats simply did not have the good use of space and the huge space of the new Hunter cockpits. So it wasn't economics that drove my decision. Four years later, I am very happy with my boat and keep it up so it looks like new. ajp
Bottom Line
We bought a 25 year old boat that needed a lot of tlc and fixed it up the way we wanted it to look with no thoughts about selling. Just to enjoy.
We bought a 25 year old boat that needed a lot of tlc and fixed it up the way we wanted it to look with no thoughts about selling. Just to enjoy.
Speaking of Investment Advisors...
I'm one, stocks are tough these days however I bought a Hunter 25 for $1000., just had the boat surveyed and assessed. Boat was valued at $5400.00, I just made 5x's my investment! With that return, I'd buy stocks from me!
I'm one, stocks are tough these days however I bought a Hunter 25 for $1000., just had the boat surveyed and assessed. Boat was valued at $5400.00, I just made 5x's my investment! With that return, I'd buy stocks from me!
Also consider
Perhaps more, even, than automobiles, the maintenance a boat has had really influences its true (not book) value. If you can be patient in your search and are looking for more than one particular make and model, you will sooner or later find one that has been meticulously maintained by a fanatical owner who is now in a "motivated seller" or "must sell" situation. Once you fall in love with a particular boat, you are hooked. But if you can walk away from a pretty good deal, knowing that a better one might soon come along, you are in the driver's seat.
Perhaps more, even, than automobiles, the maintenance a boat has had really influences its true (not book) value. If you can be patient in your search and are looking for more than one particular make and model, you will sooner or later find one that has been meticulously maintained by a fanatical owner who is now in a "motivated seller" or "must sell" situation. Once you fall in love with a particular boat, you are hooked. But if you can walk away from a pretty good deal, knowing that a better one might soon come along, you are in the driver's seat.
Mr investment Advisor
You said you made 5x on your Hunter 25 investment? Did you buy to hold or sell? You haven't made a dime yet. Survey says its worth $5,000+ but its only worth what you actually sell if for...and then you can't sail it ever ever again. The market is an efficient tool, but the boat market isn't as liquid as the stock market@!
You said you made 5x on your Hunter 25 investment? Did you buy to hold or sell? You haven't made a dime yet. Survey says its worth $5,000+ but its only worth what you actually sell if for...and then you can't sail it ever ever again. The market is an efficient tool, but the boat market isn't as liquid as the stock market@!
Andy "Susie Orman" of BLSC
You are indeed correct. However, I was simply speaking in hypothetical terms. If I actually looked to the future potential market value, including any cache it may have, upgrades, condition and whether or not a Cherubini is an attractive value I would be considering it's intrinsic value or future market value. "You don't make money until you make money". I feel that my boat is worth a far greater amount in enjoyment value. And as far as your statement "the stock market is an efficient tool". It isn't as efficient as you think.
You are indeed correct. However, I was simply speaking in hypothetical terms. If I actually looked to the future potential market value, including any cache it may have, upgrades, condition and whether or not a Cherubini is an attractive value I would be considering it's intrinsic value or future market value. "You don't make money until you make money". I feel that my boat is worth a far greater amount in enjoyment value. And as far as your statement "the stock market is an efficient tool". It isn't as efficient as you think.
I think one word explains almost all of the stock
market: Greed! Not investing for the long haul. That's just banter. Oh,,,IMHO
market: Greed! Not investing for the long haul. That's just banter. Oh,,,IMHO
For years I knew buying a boat was a bad investmen
so I never did it.. Then you ask yourself, what vallue to place on peace, relaxation, life enjoyment, family togetherness, and happiness. Up untill that time, every major purchase I made had to yield a monetary return. I used to calculate that if I bought a sailboat I would have to use it 3 weekends a month year round to get my money's worth. It wans't untill I added the above factors into consideration that I finally saw the light... My regrets, not buying it sooner. My 2 pennies worth abe
so I never did it.. Then you ask yourself, what vallue to place on peace, relaxation, life enjoyment, family togetherness, and happiness. Up untill that time, every major purchase I made had to yield a monetary return. I used to calculate that if I bought a sailboat I would have to use it 3 weekends a month year round to get my money's worth. It wans't untill I added the above factors into consideration that I finally saw the light... My regrets, not buying it sooner. My 2 pennies worth abe
Missing the point
Yes we all know the boats are a money pit. We buy them because we love to sail. The real question is how do we wisely make the purchase. If you want to pour hard earned money away then buy new and load it up with plenty of options. There is no common sense (economic) in the purchase of a boat. There is however emotion, passion, pleasure etc. in the ownership of a vesssel. Again the real question is, how do we buy smart and keep the depreciation to a minimum? Regard$...
Yes we all know the boats are a money pit. We buy them because we love to sail. The real question is how do we wisely make the purchase. If you want to pour hard earned money away then buy new and load it up with plenty of options. There is no common sense (economic) in the purchase of a boat. There is however emotion, passion, pleasure etc. in the ownership of a vesssel. Again the real question is, how do we buy smart and keep the depreciation to a minimum? Regard$...
Price of a ticket...
Like an automobile, using a boat is paying for the price of that ticket. You can ride a bus, train, taxi or you can buy a car and pay for insurance, excise tax, fuel, repairs etc. Boats are a luxury item no matter how small or large. Usually people buy a boat size up or beyond their means. Wear and tear, insurance, fuel, upkeep are the price of a ticket. In my opinion, the return on a boat comes when you've decided to sell it and have kept it in great condition. It should sell quicker and retain it's value. The downside is that most people upgrade or upsize to a larger boat that costs more. More footage, more expense. This is for fun and cannot be written off, unless you're Donald Trump!
Like an automobile, using a boat is paying for the price of that ticket. You can ride a bus, train, taxi or you can buy a car and pay for insurance, excise tax, fuel, repairs etc. Boats are a luxury item no matter how small or large. Usually people buy a boat size up or beyond their means. Wear and tear, insurance, fuel, upkeep are the price of a ticket. In my opinion, the return on a boat comes when you've decided to sell it and have kept it in great condition. It should sell quicker and retain it's value. The downside is that most people upgrade or upsize to a larger boat that costs more. More footage, more expense. This is for fun and cannot be written off, unless you're Donald Trump!
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