Sailboat buying guidance

[Kings Gambit]

Please. Yachts of that size these days could hardly be sailed by a couple w/o electric assist. You likely have many of them b/c it’s that....or crew. Let’s not compare apples with oranges, etc.

 

[dlochner]

Something to be aware of regarding Affordable Adventure Cruising (morganscloud) where I did subscribe for two years... John advises against having any modern conveniences or modern automated boat systems such as electric winches, electric or hydraulic furling systems etc, and to stick with only manual systems which will of course greatly limit the size of the boat. John and his wife in their mid 60's are now in fact writing articles on downsizing their boat to a size they can handle.

We subscribe to the opposite mindset and embrace all modern conveniences which will enable us to continue sailing well into our retirement years on our two yachts which are fully automated. Two very different philosophies.

Times change and so do opinions. Depending on the definition of mid 60's, John and Phylis may be past their mid 60s. John is about my age, give or take a few months.

In his most recent article he reviews an electric winch handle, one he intends to purchase for ~$2400. I would too, however, at that price point they are out of my budget.

I am not a luddite, however, I do want systems to be simple and easily maintained. I suppose if I had unlimited resources and access to competent marine services I might opt for more modern conveniences, but I don't have unlimited resources and I don't have access to a wide array of competent marine services. So, I tend to agree with John, keep it simple, keep it easy to maintain and repair, keep the cost down. As @Kings Gambit notes, sailboats can be expensive to maintain and operate, making them more complex and adding conveniences doesn't make them more affordable. I don't need a microwave, electric winches, bow thrusters, complex networks, electric toilets, and big inverters. For me, it is about sailing, cruising, and being in touch with the forces that drive our boats. I suppose that if I could afford a million dollars worth of boats, I might think differently, but most of us aren't in that position.

 

[TheCruisingExperience]

I'm not advocating for one philosophy over the other, 'just pointing out that there's more than one way to head out cruising.... Having modern systems which are very reliable, or without any modern systems (like some prefer), or with a mixture of systems. On our boats we prefer to have refrigeration, heat and air conditioning, electric winches, hydraulic furling systems, electric toilets, bow thrusters, microwave, induction cooktops, infrared ovens, dishwasher, scuba, LED lighting, generators etc, all of which we service ourselves. Guests onboard our yachts are able to experience using each of these systems, and then if and when they head out shopping... they'll have a better understanding of the systems they may wish to incorporate into their own yacht.

There are no right or wrong answers..... simply choices which need to be made in order to make the lifestyle sustainable for each individual. A good friend of mine just spent a couple of weeks onboard our 62 on the way down to Virginia from Boston; following the trip he purchased a vintage American classic yacht produced by the Hinckley company. He chose to have a mixture of systems, some manual and some automated. It's all about making educated decisions.

 

[dLj]

It seems to me that as the time spent on the boat increases, the need for complexity decreases. Everyone I can think of that has written about offshore sailing, and here I'm talking about folk living on their boats, crossing oceans and spending time measured in years, have all come back saying to simplify. Use simple systems, not complex systems, and especially minimize electronics.

For those that may be spending perhaps a few months at a time and coming home, then this does not necessarily apply. Those folk are more likely to have access, easy access - at least compared to being in remote areas - to both replacement parts and technicians to effectuate repairs. I recall Annie Hill writing about stopping in South Africa at about the same time as a "well" equiped sailboat. Annie and Pete went off and toured around for a couple of weeks enjoying their stay in that part of the world and upon returning to port found their friends were still working on the needed repairs to their boat.

Far better to have simple systems that can be repaired with common materials and by the residents of the boat than having to purchase parts, likely having to ship them to wherever you are, importing them etc. with all the associated headaches that entails.

dj

 

[TheCruisingExperience]

We have been living onboard for the past ten years for up to ten months per year. First aboard our Hunter 450 for two years with very little automation except for an electric windlass which necessitated having a rented slip located in Long Beach California, then aboard our Oyster 53 which is fully automated for seven years... and now the two boats. For us, we prefer modern automated systems after having tried it both ways and a combination of the two.

When we were younger, we started out on a 12 ft kite sailboat then moved up to an O'Day 20.

 

[Kings Gambit]

How did the boats get to where they are now slipped, if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[TheCruisingExperience]

How did the boats get to where they are now slipped, if you don’t mind me asking?

Sure, I don't mind answering.

The Oyster 53 was originally purchased in Ipswich, UK where we hired a delivery crew to show us how to handle the boat on the way across the Bay of Biscay and on down the coast of Spain and Portugal back in 2012. At the time, we intended to bring the boat across the Atlantic to cruise primarily New England and Canada. Instead we changed our minds, made a left turn and ended that season in the Balleric Islands in the Mediterranean. Since then, we've always sailed just the two of us, or occasionally with guests, and about 40% of the time I'm singlehanded. It's been a fantastic 8 years in the Med and looking forward to many more.

The Oyster 62 was purchased two years ago in Rhode Island. We spent summer 2018 exploring Maine and Nova Scotia with friends, and this past fall October-November 2019, I delivered the boat down from Maine to Virginia, and then on to Antigua. Usually, I have one other person onboard who's most often my wife, but 30% or the time I'm singlehanded on the 62 as well. For the delivery, there were three of us for each of the legs.

Neither boat is ever "slipped" or moored; when not on the hard for off-season storage, the yachts remain on the move or in scenic anchorages 100% of the time, never sitting still for more than a couple of days while we enjoy shore excursions such as Zip-lining, cycling, photo safari, dining at local restaurants and trying the local cuisine, etc.

 

[JohnShannon]

I hear the deals on fully outfitted cruising yachts are down in Mexico/ Guatemala and points south. This is where the cruising dream dies and the ultimatum is spoken. Also these boats are propositioned in a cruising ground. So figure out if you like sailing, then get yourself a little Central American vacation. I think a wife that is down with it, is already a huge plus. If this husband doesn't work out you should be able to get yourself another one.

 

[jssailem]

John advises against having any modern conveniences or modern automated boat systems such as electric winches,

You might be surprised. As he has aged he has kept an open mind to change. He just reviewed the EWincher with a positive outcome. He may not be the sailor advisor for all people, but I find he brings an experienced viewpoint to the discussion.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Everyone I can think of that has written about offshore sailing, and here I'm talking about folk living on their boats, crossing oceans and spending time measured in years, have all come back saying to simplify. Use simple systems, not complex systems, and especially minimize electronics.

Correlation may not be causation here. The writers who have had the opportunity to cross oceans for years are likely to be those who are from an older demographic. They were likely raised sailing in a time before modern electronics and amenities were available, making it more comfortable to continue that way.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Correlation may not be causation here. The writers who have had the opportunity to cross oceans for years are likely to be those who are from an older demographic. They were likely raised sailing in a time before modern electronics and amenities were available, making it more comfortable to continue that way.

I think the point is that, through their experience, they have “discovered” or confirmed what they have concluded is the better approach to living at sea aboard yachts. Not b/c it’s what they were taught or only practiced coming along.

 

[TheCruisingExperience]

All fully automated systems such as furling systems, winches, windlass have built-in redundancy and a manual backup. In the very rare case of a failure, we simply use them in a manual mode. Not a big deal, hardship or concern during our more than 6000 nautical miles per year.

Now getting back on topic.... there are literally thousands of suitable boats available for the OP, it’s simply a matter of them trying out many of the various amenities and choosing what they think will work in order to provide the best opportunity for a sustainable lifestyle. As I suggested in an earlier post... very few people will choose to go without modern conveniences 24/7/365 for years on end during retirement, especially when they possess the financial resources to purchase a $200k yacht.

 

[Will Gilmore]

They were likely raised sailing in a time before modern electronics and amenities were available, making it more comfortable to continue that way.

I was raised on a 56 foot sailboat designed around single handling. My father was the only one experienced at sailing among a family of 5. My younger brother was 9 when we moved aboard, my older brother was 15. We helped, but being able to work the boat during a storm was not something the Old Man wanted us to have to do. This was in the mid-seventies and electric roller furler sails were barely seen on any yacht. We had an electric windlass and a diesel engine, a gas stove and an automatic bilge pump. The head was hand pumped, there was a hand bilge pump backup. At 56 feet, Sunflower was designed as a 3 masted schooner to keep the masts short and the booms shorter. This made the sails lighter. Even I could raise them and sheet them. We sailed the Florida Gulf coast and all the way to Maine and back with no auto pilot. It wasn't until the last year aboard that we got a steering vane. We kids loved it.
Also, that schooner cost less than $70k to have built and I think she sold to $85k. There were upgrades, over the years, of course, but it was a different time, back then.
I'm envious of @HopeToSeaTheWorld's plans. I would do it in a second, if my better half had half the sense she has. The money is an issue, but we work and save our money so we can do these kinds of things. Otherwise, life is just boring.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[dLj]

Correlation may not be causation here. The writers who have had the opportunity to cross oceans for years are likely to be those who are from an older demographic. They were likely raised sailing in a time before modern electronics and amenities were available, making it more comfortable to continue that way.

Perhaps. But I wouldn't put Beth Leonard and Evans Starzingar in that category. They also said the same thing. Don't get me wrong. I'm not at all against technology, in fact, I'm quite a fan. Really, for the size boats @TheCruisingExperience is sailing, you have to have all of those technologies to single or short-hand sail.

So if boats of that size are required for your comfort/desire/whatever - I suggest you look at each system and choose the most simple, redundant system you can get. Which, if I'm reading between the lines correctly, that is what @TheCruisingExperience is doing.

The main point I'm trying to stress for the OP, is that the current marketing in sailboats is that you have to have all these bells and whistles to go off-shore, live on a boat, to be comfortable, etc, etc. and that is simply fiction. Keep in mind, almost everyone who sails a great deal says same thing, make your boat's systems as simple as possible.

@Kings Gambit said it so well in his post talking about investing only about 20% of your net worth into a boat. Everyone, no matter who we are talking about, ends up back on shore living. They may or may not continue sailing afterwards, but all will be living back on land at some future date in their life. I'm sure there may be some tiny number of exceptions to this....

The OP is in their 40's. they have a current lifestyle. When they are in their 70's (arbitrary age) or later, I'm sure they would like to at least maintain that level of lifestyle, and they probably aren't going to continue to live on their boat in the same manner as they may (if they decide they like this) during their decades of 40's to 50's and 50's to 60's. There comes a time when everyone is too old to sail - certainly in the full-time regime.

My father was an avid sailor. He sailed up until he was about 86 or 87. Then he just couldn't do it anymore. Physically it was too much for him at that point. I actually took him on his last sailing trip when he was about 88. He was only a passenger on that trip - something that surprised me at the time, but in retrospect, it shouldn't have.

Sailing is totally personal. Each individual must learn what it is they want to get out of sailing, and how it best suits their own personal needs. All we can do is add our own personal perspectives and feed back on the mistakes we've seen made by others and ourselves...

dj

 

[Bad Obsession]

One of your comments about keeping the house makes sense. Consider it a base of operations. It is a lot to get rid of all your personal possessions and scale down to a boat after living in a house. Having a house may be a good plan. You could always rent the house if you ended doing an extended cruise anyway and have another source of income.

One thing you may also want to consider is attending a few boat shows. Annapolis has a few each year and the spring sale even has some used boats advertised in it. It may we worth a look as well.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Lots of good info above. My 2 cents: A good broker will work with you on getting a boat that suits your needs and not sell you something just to make a sale and put money in his/her pocket. And, a good broker might not have the boat of your choice, so you may not end up doing business with that person, or he/she can search and find your boat. Lastly, a good broker should not get bored with frivolous questions that might waste his/her time. A good broker will compare differences in boats on all levels and help you weave through the multitude of questions you may have. If you don't do business with that broker this time around, he may enjoy your business the next time because you had a great experience. Regarding the boat: As asked above, you need to set some priorities as to how you wish to use the boat, where you are going to sail, etc. Coastal cruising, passage-making and where you specifically will visit. For example, in the Bahamas you don't want a very deep draft. 5.5' is ideal. You can get away with 6.5' but that might limit where you can go and you might have to wait for high tide. Same with SW Florida. If you are going to do long distance cruising - offshore - then you need a boat built for bad conditions. There are a number of comfortable, stylish vessels out there, but if they are not classified for offshore sailing, you don't want them. Look for Class A Ocean boat designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights, abnormal conditions and boats that are basically self-sufficient. Class B Offshore is very similar. Class C is for inshore voyages in coastal waters to include wind force 6 and significant wave heights. Class D is for sheltered and inland waters, bays, estuaries, lakes, rivers - winds to force 4......
So, boats designed for ocean or offshore purposes will be built stronger with better hull to deck joints, windows that can take heavy seas, cockpits that have sufficient drains (scuppers) and a bridge deck sufficient to not let water down through the companionway, companionway drop boards built to withstand the worst of conditions, rigs and standing rigging that are sufficient for extreme conditions, winches that are adequate in size and enough for all the tasks required, an inboard engine that has enough horse power to get you through extreme conditions, sea friendly cockpits for offshore use rather than just cocktailing, lifelines, stanchions and railings designed to withstand heavier abuse, electronics to accommodate all your navigation, communications and call for help needs, etc. etc.
Comfort: Obviously enough berths to accommodate everyone. Tanks large enough to supply you with enough potable water and fuel to take you long distances when the wind isn't blowing. Storage so you can put things away and not have gear taking up living areas of your boat. Hand rails and other things to keep you safe below when in heavy situations.....I am simply just briefly going over things to think about.
Obviously for weekend sailing, and not so ambitious outings, you don't need a boat built for the North Sea if you aren't going to sail in areas where you will be exposed to extreme conditions.
You mentioned center cockpit boats.....I like them because usually there is an awesomely huge aft cabin and head and shower area, and behind the cockpit itself there is a large deck from where you can fish. When you catch something, you can skin and clean them there and not get any of the fish guts, etc. in the cockpit which is a problem with an aft cockpit boat.
Someone mentioned multihulls. They are super comfortable with lots of living space and may accommodate what your needs are, but maybe not sail around the world in one. Also are harder to find dockage for because of their beam. But, everytime you go into a dock it costs you money. When you anchor out, it is free for the most part, which brings up another topic: Ground tackle. You need the proper anchors, rode and chain (and maybe a lot of chain), electric windlass, etc. so you know you will stay put when you drop your anchor(s).
Also to consider is your cruising budget and taking care of the boat. The bigger the boat, the higher the price of most everything, like sails dockage, haul out, storage, bottom painting, etc. When in a marina, the boat seems too big but when out to sea, it's never big enough. You want to get something easy enough to handle based on how many people will be on board. Sail handling equipment like roller furling headsails and mainsails make a lot of sense on larger vessels where sails can be very heavy. Auto pilots let you leave the cockpit to tend to things temporarily on deck.
Of course you need the required safety gear and even maybe a life raft. This all can add up.
A good generator for electricity off shore is a good thing too.
And adequate refrigeration/freezer capabilities for longer voyages is a must.
Hope this helps and gives you things to think about. Good luck.

 

[sail_MN]

I always enjoy reading Barnacle Bill’s replies. Lots of good info.