Sailboat buying guidance

Kings Gambit · Dec 31, 2019

HopeToSeaTheWorld said:
Kings gambit- as I stated multiple times previously my husband and I are members of Freedom boat club and we sail on their boats. That is all the sailing experience we have so far but are most definitely interested in learning more. Thank you for your response & for reading the complete thread before responding

So, maybe you can tell us then which boats, types of boats, or sizes of boats of the FBC that you’ve sailed on; e.g., so as an indication of your level of hands-on experience with sailing? You’ll get better recommendations that way

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capta · Dec 31, 2019

sail sfbay said:
Lots of chartering options all over and never a bad experience. My wife and I have charters sailboats in the Chesapeake Bay, Southern California and in the British Virgin Islands (Fleet | TMM Yacht Charters). Chartering is nice way to spend a vacation but cost $3000+ per week and requires a sailing resume before they approve. If you both do not have that then charter with friends that have the prerequisite sailing resume. A relatively low cost option to develop a sailing resume for chartering and sail different sailboats of varying lengths and type is to join a club that has a fleet of sailboats that you can get qualified (maybe under American Sailing Association) to take out as a member for day and overnight trips.

Most bareboat companies have a stable of competent 'skippers' they can put aboard a boat with charterers who may not have the experience or confidence to operate the vessel themselves. In many cases a term crewed charter is a much better option, especially if the charterers do not have any familiarity with the area, no matter how much sailing experience they may have.
Also, it would be a rare thing to find an Oyster, Swan or other top of the line sailboat in a bareboat fleet, so the only way someone desiring to sail on one of these vessels would be a term charter. Anyone thinking of spending 200k on a cruising boat most likely has the intelligence and financial ability to charter a few vessels to see which suits them best. Every year we meet cruisers in the Caribbean (no matter how many years they have been day sailing) who find they have made a horrible mistake and after selling everything, outfitting a vessel and actually going cruising, wish they had tried out the sailing thing by doing a few charters before jumping head first into it. The sad thing is they can never get as much out of their boat as they put in, so when they do return to dirt dwelling, their standard of living usually goes down significantly.

Kings Gambit · Dec 31, 2019

Yeah. The reality doesn’t always follow the dream. There are probably at least a couple of dozen books out there that review the realities of full-time cruising, as well as of other maritime activities. I found most of the ones I’ve read to be good reads, as well. Learned a lot. My wife and I chartered for two or three years, probably at least 20 departures, but not all for overnighters, out of St. Pete, FL on boats up to 34 ft b/f buying our first cruising boat, a Pearson 30, which we sailed around there for 6-7 yr.

As there are a lot of Morgan yachts around southwest Florida, the birthplace of that brand, you might find some still in charter. Although, charter companies usually don’t like to put older yachts in service b/c they require too much maintenance, so it’s actually doubtful. The older boats typically have “warmer” interiors than the newer ones, so are more homey and comfortable.

You don’t have to start with a Caribbean cruise vacation to start chartering; so it does not have to be prohibitively expensive. Take “baby steps.” Nobody these days it seems wants to be a beginner. We’ve seen several folks come to the forum who wish to start their first serious sailing activity with a round-the-world blue water cruise, or variation, and seeking advice. Take a year to get your feet wet b/f diving in. As Capta alluded, there’s usually no good way to restore your status quo ante if it doesn’t work out once the house has gone into the boat. :huh:

dlochner · Dec 31, 2019

@HopeToSeaTheWorld Here are a couple of resources you may find helpful.

John Harries's website Affordable Adventure Cruising is a valuable resource. John is very experienced and has an opinion or two that he is willing to share. Much of his experience is with high latitude sailing, but can be generalized to other areas. Recently he did an extensive review of the Garcia 45 and the Boreal 47, while neither of these boats may be candidates for your boat, the process John goes through and the issues he raises are worth noting and will help you understand what you should be looking for. He has recently recorded a podcast with Andy Schell about purchasing a fiberglass boat. I haven't listened to it yet, but I'm sure it will contain useful information. Many of the comments made on AAC come from well known experts in the field. It is a pay site, ~$20 a year and worth every penny.

Another site is Ran Sailing, a Swedish couple who have been sailing for several years including Atlantic and Pacific crossings. They sold their boat over the summer and have spent the fall looking for a new boat. The videos cover their decision making and assessment of the boats they looked at. These are worth watching to learn about what's important to a cruising couple and now with a small family. Here's a link to one of their videos.

TheCruisingExperience · Dec 31, 2019

Some folks cling to the past and there's nothing wrong with that, but yacht design has moved on.... so please don't steer away from checking out more recent offerings. You just might like what you see.

capta · Dec 31, 2019

6 cabins in a 52' boat? Sheer madness! Even as a charter boat, that's way too many people for anyone to have a good time. And how could you possibly have flow through ventilation in all those cabins?
We could be making twice as much or more by taking more than two guests, but we are only interested in giving our charter guests the best experience of their life, not a ride on a cattle car. With more than two, folks couldn't even lay out on the cockpit benches to read or relax and sailing with 6 or 8 (2 crew plus guests) in the cockpit of our 53 footer (and it's a pretty big cockpit) would be no fun at all. Sardines in a can is my vision of that.
Who ever designed that layout has never spent time on a 53' sailboat with a few other people.

Tim Mills · Dec 31, 2019

Don't buy a fixer upper. If you are planning some real bluewater sailing buy a boat (the Morgan is a good one, Island Packet, Tartan) that has already been fully refitted for living aboard in the past 2-5 years. You will save a ton of money.

Tim Mills · Dec 31, 2019

The most expensive boat is a free boat

Tim Mills · Dec 31, 2019

I'm kinda partial to the Pearson 422 and 424. Old but nice boats. Hard to find one in pristine condition. Well below your budget also.

Johnb · Dec 31, 2019

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, so here goes. Taking the equity from a home and putting into a boat may be nuts. If you don't know what the upkeep is going to be, or if you think it isn't going to eat your lunch, you are living in a fools paradise.

During the 20 years that we have owned our boat that we bought (in good shape)for $27,000 we have spent at least 5 times that in dock fees, routine maintenance, upgrades, insurance and repairs. And right now, although it is cruise ready, it is probably not worth what we paid for it in 1999 dollars. In the same time our house (which admittedly has also had plenty spent on it) is worth maybe 4 times what it was in 1999.

You have been warned - the total cost is way beyond the purchase price and the return is minimal.

dlochner · Jan 1, 2020

capta said:
6 cabins in a 52' boat? Sheer madness! Even as a charter boat, that's way too many people for anyone to have a good time. And how could you possibly have flow through ventilation in all those cabins?
We could be making twice as much or more by taking more than two guests, but we are only interested in giving our charter guests the best experience of their life, not a ride on a cattle car. With more than two, folks couldn't even lay out on the cockpit benches to read or relax and sailing with 6 or 8 (2 crew plus guests) in the cockpit of our 53 footer (and it's a pretty big cockpit) would be no fun at all. Sardines in a can is my vision of that.
Who ever designed that layout has never spent time on a 53' sailboat with a few other people.

Spoiler Alert! They didn't buy the boat with 6 cabins.

Johnb said:
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, so here goes. Taking the equity from a home and putting into a boat may be nuts. If you don't know what the upkeep is going to be, or if you think it isn't going to eat your lunch, you are living in a fools paradise.

Boats are depreciating assets, unlike a fine wine or scotch they don't get better with age. Selling a house and putting all the money into the boat is not a good idea. However, investing the money and living off the income while sailing is viable.

There was a time a long time ago when the rate of inflation was higher than the rate of depreciation. That coupled with fairly high demand gave the illusion that boats didn't depreciate. You could buy a new boat keep it a few years and sell it for the original purchase price. Those days are (fortunately) long gone.

Kings Gambit · Jan 1, 2020

Boats (yachts) appear to maintain a residual value or worth. When eventually depreciated to that value, they tend to remain near it. Inflation keeps them there, although inflated dollars have intrinsically less purchasing power, etc. They maintain a non-zero value. So, when it is finally paid off you can still sell it for something. This, of course, is true of many kinds of hard assets; but we’re talking about boats.

Boats are always in a buyers’ market; whereas, homes/houses are nearly always in a sellers’ market. Going out, that is selling the house and buying the boat, looks “good” to people b/c they have the better hand in both transactions. The converse, selling the boat and buying the house, is not so good b/c one has the poorer hand in both transactions there. Think of it as sailing downwind versus upwind to destination.

If one wants to blow off the world and live the “dream” until waking up

, then he/she/they doesn’t/don’t care about that. But if you wish to return to a “standard of living” like the one that was left behind, then you need a viable financial plan.

At the most, you would not wish the boat to represent more than 20% of your net worth. Someone with a net worth of, say, $500K, should not be looking at boats costing more than $100K after the deal is done, IMHO. Remember, there are many “holding costs” for the boat; e.g., insurance. So, the first thing is, do what you can afford to do. You can do more if you use your “power” in the market you’re in. As a buyer, search out boats of good value. Forget about what you “want”. Think about what you need, and can afford to have, to pursue the dream, etc. A good value is a boat that can do the job you wish, one that is in good condition, not needing any major work, and hopefully one that has enough intrinsic build quality to hold a comparatively high residual value. So, you’re a little “cramped.” Let me tell you, one (i.e., inexperienced newbie) cannot accurately assess the comfort level of a yacht from the prospective of land-based structures. Once you’re on it, living on it, it’s big enough. Trust me.

Newer yachts have a lot of wasted space. Empty volume designed to appeal to prejudices of prospective buyers’ land-based perspectives of space and comfort. You can pay a premium for all of that nothingness. Don’t fall for that; or at least be aware of the subliminal tug on you to go for the “promise” of land-based living “comfort” on a cruising yacht

. This why you need experience with boats b/f diving in :huh:

!

dlochner · Jan 1, 2020

HopeToSeaTheWorld said:
And THAT is why I’m afraid! I’m telling my husband that we need to keep the house. We have so much equity in it now & we’d be throwing it all away on a boat that will not gain equity. Doesn’t make any sense to me at all. I’d like to rent or air bnb our house out when we’re on the boat. But that means a much smaller kitty for the boat purchase, etc due to our mortgage payment. I agree with you 110%. Forwarding onto my hubby now! Thank you! I appreciate your advice!

Since there does not seem to be a unanimous vote for selling the house and chasing the dream, perhaps a smaller step would be in order.

There are a dozen boats in the 30-35' range for sail in Florida on Yachtworld.com where the asking price is about $15K. Buy one spend time on it, spend a little money on it. Learn about sailing, cruising, and being together for extended periods of time. Living in a space that is about 300 sq. ft, can present challenges. After a couple of seasons sailing the Gulf Coast and taking week or two trips, both you and your husband will have a much better idea if this is the life style you want and what things on a boat are important to you. After sailing for a couple of years, make a decision, sell the boat and buy the dream boat, sell the boat and get out of sailing, or keep it because it works for you. If you sell the boat, you won't lose much if any money on the deal. Boats in this price range have pretty much reached their lowest value if they are maintained reasonably well.

Here are some owner listings on SBO for boat under 20K and from 30-35'.

Used sailboats, sailboats for sale

sbo.sailboatowners.com

And on Yachtworld.com, under 15K.

Used Sailboats for sale in Florida - YachtWorld

Find used sailboats for sale in Florida. Offering the best selection of boats to choose from.

www.yachtworld.com

dLj · Jan 1, 2020

Kings Gambit said:
Boats (yachts) appear to maintain a residual value or worth. When eventually depreciated to that value, they tend to remain near it. Inflation keeps them there, although inflated dollars have intrinsically less purchasing power, etc. They maintain a non-zero value. So, when it is finally paid off you can still sell it for something. This, of course, is true of many kinds of hard assets; but we’re talking about boats.

Boats are always in a buyers’ market; whereas, homes/houses are nearly always in a sellers’ market. Going out, that is selling the house and buying the boat, looks “good” to people b/c they have the better hand in both transactions. The converse, selling the boat and buying the house, is not so good b/c one has the poorer hand in both transactions there. Think of it as sailing downwind versus upwind to destination.

If one wants to blow off the world and live the “dream” until waking up , then he/she/they doesn’t/don’t care about that. But if you wish to return to a “standard of living” like the one that was left behind, then you need a viable financial plan.

At the most, you would not wish the boat to represent more than 20% of your net worth. Someone with a net worth of, say, $500K, should not be looking at boats costing more than $100K after the deal is done, IMHO. Remember, there are many “holding costs” for the boat; e.g., insurance. So, the first thing is, do what you can afford to do. You can do more if you use your “power” in the market you’re in. As a buyer, search out boats of good value. Forget about what you “want”. Think about what you need, and can afford to have, to pursue the dream, etc. A good value is a boat that can do the job you wish, one that is in good condition, not needing any major work, and hopefully one that has enough intrinsic build quality to hold a comparatively high residual value. So, you’re a little “cramped.” Let me tell you, one (i.e., inexperienced newbie) cannot accurately assess the comfort level of a yacht from the prospective of land-based structures. Once you’re on it, living on it, it’s big enough. Trust me.

Newer yachts have a lot of wasted space. Empty volume designed to appeal to prejudices of prospective buyers’ land-based perspectives of space and comfort. You can pay a premium for all of that nothingness. Don’t fall for that; or at least be aware of the subliminal tug on you to go for the “promise” of land-based living “comfort” on a cruising yacht. This why you need experience with boats b/f diving in!

I have never seen this written up like this before. This is an absolutely superbly well written assessment! IMHO....

dj

jssailem · Jan 1, 2020

Welcome @HopeToSeaTheWorld to the forum. What a great way to start the new year. Looking for a boat.

It is winter time here on the forum and the best time to ask a question like this. With us sailors having locked up our boats, nothing to do... we want to help others to join our madness.

for Dave's recommendation: "John Harries's website Affordable Adventure Cruising"
One of his great posts is titled "the Right Way to Buy a Boat... and the Wrong Way"... One hof his great suggestions is to "think about vital capabilities, not features." He goes into detail on this thought. When I read this it helped me to understand the type of boat best to work for me. I sat down and prepared a list of capabilities I wanted the boat to have. Then I went out to look at boats. I learned quickly that none of the boats I found met all of the capability list. Boats are compromises. At least with a list you can identify these compromises and prioritize them so that the boat you select fulfills most of your desired capabilities.

I think one of the reasons boat owners go through 2-3 boats before they run out of money or find their dream boat is because they are looking at the feature package not the boats capabilities.

There is some free stuff by John and Phyllis. Here is a link.

Boat Design/Selection

www.morganscloud.com

TheCruisingExperience · Jan 1, 2020

Something to be aware of regarding Affordable Adventure Cruising (morganscloud) where I did subscribe for two years... John advises against having any modern conveniences or modern automated boat systems such as electric winches, electric or hydraulic furling systems etc, and to stick with only manual systems which will of course greatly limit the size of the boat. John and his wife in their mid 60's are now in fact writing articles on downsizing their boat to a size they can handle.

We subscribe to the opposite mindset and embrace all modern conveniences which will enable us to continue sailing well into our retirement years on our two yachts which are fully automated. Two very different philosophies.

Sailboat buying guidance

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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