Rule of the road question.
- Thread starter kpgraci
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Well I had a good time reading and debating this, I guess I was just looking for some confirmation that maybe, just maybe, he should have had a thought process other than, I want to tack but if I do I'll be on a collission course with that boat that's just right over there...sure hope he turns...
The length of this discussion far, far outweighs any gruntled reaction I had, but when he tacked the hair on the back of my neck rose and I thought, whoa, this can't be right, that suckers coming right at me...
boat magnets...funny
Thanks all, I promise I won't bring this topic up ever again
The length of this discussion far, far outweighs any gruntled reaction I had, but when he tacked the hair on the back of my neck rose and I thought, whoa, this can't be right, that suckers coming right at me...
boat magnets...funny
Thanks all, I promise I won't bring this topic up ever again
I'm with mmerriman ... if a sailboat overtakes mine and sails into a position where my view may be blanketed and then makes his course alteration and 45 seconds later I T-bone him ... I think I'd be citing this Rule 13 to equal out liability for sure.
This isn't saying that I think there is an excuse for not posting watch adequately, but in this circumstance, I would use the rule in an instant to avoid paying damages for the other boat. just sayin ...
This isn't saying that I think there is an excuse for not posting watch adequately, but in this circumstance, I would use the rule in an instant to avoid paying damages for the other boat. just sayin ...
but wasn't he clear ahead?
d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
I don't think the rule would help you. The previously overtaking boat was very clearly ( in my opinion) "finally past and clear". When he tacked there was obviously room and opportunity for the port tack boat to keep clear, which is what he did.
I'm not saying I morally agree that this should happen between two boats out for a casual day sail but I don't think there was a rules infringement. A breach of etiquette yes, but I don't think a breach of the rules of the road.
Just my opinion obviously.
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d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
I don't think the rule would help you. The previously overtaking boat was very clearly ( in my opinion) "finally past and clear". When he tacked there was obviously room and opportunity for the port tack boat to keep clear, which is what he did.
I'm not saying I morally agree that this should happen between two boats out for a casual day sail but I don't think there was a rules infringement. A breach of etiquette yes, but I don't think a breach of the rules of the road.
Just my opinion obviously.
Ken, keep 'em comin'. No reason to stop now. I think we've all learned something, and I, personally, appreciate your issue.
My take on the rules of the road apply equally to the water and the highway. There are fools out there. On the charts there ought to be a notation that states "And here there be fools." In all cases I watch for them and try my damnest to avoid them. It is so easy to anticipate stupid behavior and avoid it. . I have been driving for 60 years and boating for more than twenty and have not had any accidents. . You simply anticipate them and avoid them.
Disagree - while there is no official quantitative definition of past and clear, anytime the boat being past says "WHOA THERE" - they're not past and clear. I've been informed by some USCG authorities that once you pass a vessel - they own stand on until you're out of sight.
Out of Sight ...
In my case, "out of sight" would mean when the overtaking vessel is blanketed from view by my genny! (kidding, of course!). Most times, these types of infractions are much ado about nothing, but it does go to show, that coincidental errors made during casual and relaxed circumstances, can lead to costly or disasterous outcomes. It pays to be watchful and/or careful at all times, no matter how relaxed the situation.
I have never claimed to be the perfect sailor. I'm glad that this little incident was brought up because this discussion may cause a little bell to go off in my head if I ever happen upon a similar incident, and cause me to be just a little more alert.
In my case, "out of sight" would mean when the overtaking vessel is blanketed from view by my genny!
(kidding, of course!). Most times, these types of infractions are much ado about nothing, but it does go to show, that coincidental errors made during casual and relaxed circumstances, can lead to costly or disasterous outcomes. It pays to be watchful and/or careful at all times, no matter how relaxed the situation. I have never claimed to be the perfect sailor. I'm glad that this little incident was brought up because this discussion may cause a little bell to go off in my head if I ever happen upon a similar incident, and cause me to be just a little more alert.
I'd still like to know har far another boat has to be to stay in Ken's good graces.
I genuinely would like an answer to that question, because clearly if all the people that we've been waving at during crossings are like Ken, then they were secretly cursing under their breaths while they smiled and waved at us. I need to apologize to all of them.I never thought that someone could be declared a "dick" simply because he is on starboard tack during a crossing.
To the guy with the deck sweeper genoa: Are you saying that your big genny absolves you of your responisbility to keep a lookout, including going to the low side periodically and taking a peek at what's happening to leeward?
Until you're out of sight?? Are you serious?
Here in Maine, "out of sight" depends largely on visibility. In heavy fog, it could be a boat length -- way too close for most cruising sailors and even some racers. On a nice sunny day, it could be five miles. There are not a whole lot of places on the coast of Maine where you can go file miles without changing course and not hit something hard. It truly scares me to hear these kinds of anecdotes about people working for the government in positions of authority.
Rules of the road were created so that boats in close proximity can avoid hitting one another. If you take Ken's original post literally, you could surmise that ANYTIME boats are in a P/S crossing situation, then one of them surely must have breached some rule of etiquette because his prior actions put the boats on a collision course. You know how ridiculous this sounds?
That would make a mockery of all the rules. Hogwash.
I sure hope you don't sail like that.
Once you're clear, then the other guy becomes the "overtaking" vessel if he speeds up. Just think about it for a minute, read the rules and see how really silly this sounds.
No I don't sail like that - I sail as defensively as possible - but the "rules" where not written for us - they were written for lawyers by lawyers over time to assign and apportion blame and assess damages. The fact that MANY things in the rules are subjective (safe speed, lookout, restricted visibility, free and clear, under power (folks will have fun with that one)) leave it open to the judging authority to determine the violation. Just remember, if there is an accident, its NOT like driving a car - more often than not both parties will be found at fault to different degrees - its the way the rules are written.That would make a mockery of all the rules. Hogwash.
I sure hope you don't sail like that.
Once you're clear, then the other guy becomes the "overtaking" vessel if he speeds up. Just think about it for a minute, read the rules and see how really silly this sounds.
I'd still like to know har far another boat has to be to stay in Ken's good graces.
I never thought that someone could be declared a "dick" simply because he is on starboard tack during a crossing.
To the guy with the deck sweeper genoa: Are you saying that your big genny absolves you of your responisbility to keep a lookout, including going to the low side periodically and taking a peek at what's happening to leeward?
Again - since there IS no quantitative definition, its open to interpretation.
Gail, it's not clear what your rant is about. Ken described a condition where one sail boat passes another (to leeward - a courteous thing to do) and then soon after tacks to starboard and forces the rolled boat to avert a collision (not a courteous thing to do). As Ross described, it's like being passed on the highway and then immediately being forced to hit the brakes because the passing car just got around you and then wants to make a turn.
In the case of Rule 13, as mmerriman describes, there appears to be an established rule that says that the passing boat did not clear far enough ahead before making his starboard tack. It seems reasonable to me. There is no need to get carried away with extreme positions.
I said that I could see how a bad situation could develop by coinciding errors ... I wasn't excusing not knowing what lies ahead.
But if you want to use your dense fog as an analogy ... how would you feel about a sailboat that appears out of the fog off your hip to leeward and then passes you and disappears into the fog. Then seconds later, you find him on starboard tack about a boat length in front of you as your distance closes and he appears once again out of the fog? If you t-boned him, I bet you would want to use Rule 13 to avoid paying damages to his boat.
In the case of Rule 13, as mmerriman describes, there appears to be an established rule that says that the passing boat did not clear far enough ahead before making his starboard tack. It seems reasonable to me. There is no need to get carried away with extreme positions.
I said that I could see how a bad situation could develop by coinciding errors ... I wasn't excusing not knowing what lies ahead.
But if you want to use your dense fog as an analogy ... how would you feel about a sailboat that appears out of the fog off your hip to leeward and then passes you and disappears into the fog. Then seconds later, you find him on starboard tack about a boat length in front of you as your distance closes and he appears once again out of the fog? If you t-boned him, I bet you would want to use Rule 13 to avoid paying damages to his boat.
Maybe someone ought to mail a copy of the COLREGS to someone in upper management at the IN DNR. In my mind, its like state laws contradicting the Constitution.Indysailor said:I've always wanted to ask someone this question. If the starboard tack boat is the stand on vessel, what am I to make of the following?
This is from the Indiana Boaters Guide, which is what the IN DNR uses for boater education:
No mention of starboard or port tack- I'm not sure what to make of this.
For the record, I just stay well away from other boats unless I know who they are
Sorry, I don't buy it. The other boat was a football field away when he tacked. That is by no means "soon after" having politely passed to leeward. Both boats were probably going what, four or five knots? From a football field away, there was plenty of time for the "rolled? boat to make a slight course change and pass to the other boat's stern without needing to make an evasive maneuver.
The "extreme position" here is the OP's insistance that no one should be allowed to tack anywhere in his vicinity if there is even the slightest chance that it may result in a crossing situation.
Generally, when it is that foggy, there is not a breath of wind so people are not tacking to and fro. But on the off chance there was a breeze, and we saw a boat directly in front of us on starboard, we would duck him and exchange a friendly greeting about the soup.
IMHO, the OP and others who think that you shoudl be completely out of sight of any other boat before you tack are being a bit unreasonable. Again, my point is that the ROR are there so that when boats are in close proximity, there is an established set of expectations about who does what. Bottom line was that the RIRs were followed to a T here and is really should be a non-issue, save for the OP's apparently reluctance about the need to share water with someone.
The original post describes the leeward boat 100 yards ahead of the windward boat. 100 yards is a significant distance for a 22' boat. This post says that AFTER leeward tacked onto starboard, there was about 45 seconds (almost a full minute) before the two boats converged. To have tacked too close, the leeward boat would have to have been within a few boatlengths, (say 30' or less?) and perhaps have tacked with less than five seconds of "reaction time" for the windward boat.He overtook me, passed me at a safe distance on my downwind side, then when in front, tacked in front of me. A collision was not imminent, but he was clearly on a collision course. I do not believe it was malicious, I do not believe he thought anything of it (which is part of my problem) - he had ample crew, maybe 5 or 6. I'm positive he knew my position, course and speed. After he tacked I waited about 45 seconds or so to see if this was his final course and if he had any intention of turning.
While the starboard tack boat may have been closer than you liked, it sounds like he may have passed you by politely going to leeward of you so as not to take your air and purposely continued on (100 yards) so as to be sure of clearing you before he tacked. None of us armchair quarterbacks were there to see it, but your "collision course" may have been his "clear by a mile". Perception is 90% of reality, of course, and you're calling the shots here. On the other hand, if I'm racing on port and have to duck a starboard tack boat at six knots, I try to put my bow pulpit about 3' behind his backstay. How close did you actually come?
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It may help to begin to imagine this as a simple distance issue, which can be calculated.
Let's say that Ken's boat is doing 4 knots and the Bogey "O" (overtaking) is doing 5 knots. Gotta be going faster to pass, right?
I'm thinking of doing the math to see how long it would take to get 300 feet (100 yards) past Ken.
Then the only differentiating factor would be how far off Ken's starboard side that Bogey O would be to figure out the time involved at that distance.
Any help would be mostly appreciated.
Math - o my gosh.
It may help to begin to imagine this as a simple distance issue, which can be calculated.
Let's say that Ken's boat is doing 4 knots and the Bogey "O" (overtaking) is doing 5 knots. Gotta be going faster to pass, right?
I'm thinking of doing the math to see how long it would take to get 300 feet (100 yards) past Ken.
Then the only differentiating factor would be how far off Ken's starboard side that Bogey O would be to figure out the time involved at that distance.
Any help would be mostly appreciated.
Math - o my gosh.
Starboard rule results in "right" of way
In most situations, the starboard boat is to the right of the boat on a port tack.
Exception, where sailing rules disagree with the Indiana summary include overtaking, and a reaching boat versus a close hauled boat on the same tack.
In most situations, the starboard boat is to the right of the boat on a port tack.
Exception, where sailing rules disagree with the Indiana summary include overtaking, and a reaching boat versus a close hauled boat on the same tack.
Same for New Hampshire, ever looked at a chart for Lake Winnipesaukee?
http://www.lake-winnipesaukee-travel-guide.com/map.html
Not only do they have 4 types of markers, they use black as one of the colors, good luck spotting a black buoy at night!The link above this said:
I can't speak for Ken, but for me, too close is when the give way vessel (assuming it is another sailboat, and I am not racing them) is going to pass less than 3 to 5 boat lengths away from my established course (depending on conditions) at our closest point of approach. If I have to alter course in anyway to ensure this minimum distance, then I get angry.I'd still like to know har far another boat has to be to stay in Ken's good graces.
If it's a powerboat and making a wake, I expect the minimum 200ft separation at all times, and anyone that comes within 400ft throwing a large enough wake that i need to turn into it I consider a total *****. I will get on the radio and call powerboats out for passing within 200ft if they both make a big wake and I can read the name on their hull. Have reported a few to the CG when they passed within 50 ft...
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