Rule of the road question.
- Thread starter kpgraci
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I usually continue on my course until the last moment and Holler "Sorry I did not see you"
It really scares the crap out of them, especially if you fake sounding intoxicated.
It really scares the crap out of them, especially if you fake sounding intoxicated.
On SF Bay, I've become very distrustful of this condition. For all boats. Race boats are not an exception. I don't assume that just because a crew is looking at you, the helmsman is also aware. Actually the contrary. I think this is because the crew, often with legs hanging over the rail and all looking right at you, take it for granted that the helmsman has noticed you as well. In such a case, yelling out to the helmsman (most often the most experienced person on board -- or least the guy in charge at the moment) might be considered rude? And hey, we are all taught it is not polite to be a backseat driver. So no one says anything.
Last time this happened to me, it was a large race boat with many crew up on the windward rail. It wasn't a race, just a solitary race boat out with its support power boat for a practice. I was the only other sailboat in the vicinity that evening. Although I had the starboard tack, and the race boat had the port tack, I wanted to get very clear of this large fast boat out on a mission. He looked to be pinching the wind to the max. So from still a couple of minutes away, I made one, then another, pronounced course change to be sure I was well away from the direction he was going. Maybe the helmsman was distracted by something else besides his course, because his course kept varying. And ultimately he was headed directly towards me -- this after I had really tried to get out of the vicinity. I still had the starboard tack, he the port tack. So as he got closer, I had to go into the stand-on mode. Our courses and speed (me slow and he very fast) were such that my maneuvering options at that point seemed limited. But he only needed to alter course slightly to pass behind me. I could see the guys on the rail looking right at me, but race boat made no course change. However, I couldn't see the helmsman's face whose view in my direction was blocked by the deck swept jib/genoa and the heel of his boat. So for the first time ever, I gave five bursts from my compressed air horn. Immediately, I saw the helmsman crouch down and peer under the jib/genoa. Without hesitation he altered course to pass safely behind me.
Probably without the horn there would have been no collision. But it would have been heart pounding close. I am sure that the helmsman for even as long as a couple of minutes had no idea that I was sharing the bay with him -- until he was close enough to hear my horn. If he had seen me, as the give way vessel he would have made the pronounced course change earlier.
Another reinforcement for me that the larger the crew, maybe the less likely the helmsman will be paying attention. He's got a lot of other distractions to deal with and the crew may not call out the warning until too late.
Anyway, I really really pay attention to boats with crews if I can't tell by the boat's action that the helmsman knows of my presence. I think actually that having a crew, either racing or friends and relatives, can be a distraction for the helmsman rather than a help.
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Why not ? You admit she was the priviledged vessel both before and after she tacked. Don't "glare" just get on with your life.
IN DNR does not exactly follow uscg regulations. Another example is that all public lakes and rivers automatically become a no wake zone from sunset to sunrise. Uscg regulations does not require that power boats go slow at night, only that they do not hit another boat (which would be far more likely at night).Indysailor said:
After some musing and reading the comments I’ve come to a conclusion. Although only 6 miles apart I sail from a harbor with little traffic, he from a harbor with considerable almost intolerable (IMO) congestion. I suppose its like home school vs public school, I have no inter-boat social skills, I like to keep my distance. I’m sure he brushes past other boats on a regular basis. From his viewpoint it was normal sailing on a normal day, from my viewpoint it was impolite at best, dangerous at worse. So by that analogy, the home school kid got beat up when he ventured onto the playground, ha, you’re right, I should get over it. He seems to be within the rules of the road but perhaps laking in social graces - it's a curtural thing.
I see no reason to complain. The other boat pased you to leeward ( nice of him) and then was basically pinned ahead and below you. If he didn't tack he would have to luff the sailsl and stall and wait for you to pass or do a 270 jibe and cross your stern. It was easier for you to just duck his stern.
When I need an accomodation or know I will cause another boat to have to alter course, I yell over what I need/want to do and usually get a thumbs up.
When I need an accomodation or know I will cause another boat to have to alter course, I yell over what I need/want to do and usually get a thumbs up.
I'm not quite seeing what the stand-on guy did wrong and why the OP thinks he was rude. The guy passed to leeward (the polite thing to do) and was 100 yards away (that's a football field -- 13 of the O'Day 22's boat lengths) when he made the turn. If he's any good, he never lost way, and his jib was in and he was pretty much up to speed in less than that 100 yards. If I'm on port and see a boat tacking onto starboard, I'm already looking at relative angles with plans to duck him if I have to (this, regardless of whether I'm racing or cruising).
Provided these two boats really were a football field apart when he tacked, seems to me the OP as the give-way vessel had plenty of opportunity to keep clear without having to make a huge evasive maneuver.
Sounds to me like the rules of the road were followed to a T here. If you still think it was too close, how much room would have been enough to not offend your sensibilities?
Provided these two boats really were a football field apart when he tacked, seems to me the OP as the give-way vessel had plenty of opportunity to keep clear without having to make a huge evasive maneuver.
Sounds to me like the rules of the road were followed to a T here. If you still think it was too close, how much room would have been enough to not offend your sensibilities?
Sorry. Maybe I do. But the rules here are as basic as the rules in an automobile driver test and should be known before sailing alone. Yeah, I do think basic reading and research before posting is courteous.Please read a book on sailboat racing; this is all in there and your nomenclature is a bit non-conventional. "Positioning" is a good choice; there are many others.
geez Thinwater, you make casually asking a question pretty tough.... we could all go read many books on sailboat racing and skip this site altogether, but without being qualified as all experts, I think there might be room for some questions to be asked without perfect word choice.
I hate to think that I need may sailing terminology book next to me in order to communicate here.
Later he stated that the tack was finished 45 seconds BEFORE the crossing. That's not even impolite. The other fellow was well clear and probably thought he would cross ahead; he simply underestimated his leeway. The original poster also had 45 seconds to make a very small course adjustment, rather than waiting. No, the other boat was not lacking social graces; however, someone is rather touchy.
We are probably all touchy about something. For instance, if I said something like "learn the COLREGs and Inland Rules" every time I read someones "I've been doing it this way for xxx years so I must be right" or "racing rules" I'm bound to piss someone off.
I am with Ross on this one.. That is exactly the same situation as when someone passes you on the highway then swings into your lane then brakes for a turn, causing you to slow to avoid him/her.. He is in the right, but it is discourteous to do so and puts you both at risk.. Agreed, you do the avoudance but the guy really could have held his heading/position a little longer to assure clearance on his tack/turn..
This thread raised the point of racing sailboats. When in a sailboat race, all competitors know the rules and expect to take quick and decisive actions to maximize their advantages. In your case Racing Rules Section A Rule 12 states: “When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead." And also in Rule 13: "After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close hauled course." But the major rule that applies here is under IRPCAS (International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea) because you and the other boat weren't in a race. Generally, the International rules state that to avoid a collision, do not initiate any action that would cause the other boat to be put into danger. Since you took 45 seconds to react and you were not in danger of a collision, it appears that the other boat is simply guilty of discourtesy. I guess you could call the other boat’s skipper “tachy.”
Cooperstownsailor
MacGregor 25
Flying Scott
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Cooperstownsailor
MacGregor 25
Flying Scott
Laser
Precisely. The OP had 45 seconds to make a slight course change to duck a boat that turned onto starboard when he was 100 yards away. We're not talking close quarters here, that is a football field. This bears absolutely no resemblance to the guy that passes you on the highway going 65 mph then cuts you off to make the exit ramp.
A couple questions to the folks that think the other guy was rude: First, how good are you at predicting exactly where your boat will be 45 seconds after you tack, keeping in mind you might encounter a wind shift/lull, foul current, bad wrap on the winch, lobster buoy, chunk of weed, or any number of conditions/obstacles that could mess you up? Are you always right? Second, how far away did the other fellow have to be to make you happy? A quarter mile? Half a mile?
We cross other boats all the time on the water, both racing and cruising. We always offer a friendly greeting, even to people we don't like that much.
Here's a little comparison to cars. I ride a commuter van to work. The park and ride lot is sometimes used by tractor trailers, so space can sometimes get tight. The other day, I pulled into a space next to a fellow rider's car. I was smack dab in the middle of the painted lines (I'm OCD that way). The other guy looked at me as I was getting out and said "Kinda close don't you think?" Apparently this fellow thinks that no one should park in the spaces on either side of him. I will make it a point to park as far from him as possible from now on; I have to spend two hours a day in a vehicle with this jerk and I don't need the aggrevation.
Some people just need to harden up and come to the realization that they need to share some things -- like the water, roads, and parking lots -- with others.
Actually until the OP stated that he was overtaken by the other vessel, the other vessel, while a dick, was in the right - however the new info of being overtaken puts the other vessel in the wrong according to rule 13 (below). Once you are overtaken you are and will continue to be the stand on vessel - note this goes for us sailors overtaking power vessels as well.
RULE 13: OVERTAKING
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
RULE 13: OVERTAKING
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
I'm with Gail on this one.
A flippin' football field away is NOT close.
Years ago we were racing our old C22, and near the end of the course we had an opportunity to "slam dunk" (port to starboard tack) another boat by doing exactly what that vessel that overtook the OP did. And we were a LOT closer after our tack, but had finished our tack and were on starboard. He courteously ducked our stern as he should have.
The OP, I fear, doth protest too much.
Way too much.
A football field?
And if you read the last post, it clearly says: (b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
This was the condition when the overtaking vessel started to overtake the OP. After that, when he completed the pass, he was already way past the OP.
This should NOT be an issue.
A football field?!?
A flippin' football field away is NOT close.
Years ago we were racing our old C22, and near the end of the course we had an opportunity to "slam dunk" (port to starboard tack) another boat by doing exactly what that vessel that overtook the OP did. And we were a LOT closer after our tack, but had finished our tack and were on starboard. He courteously ducked our stern as he should have.
The OP, I fear, doth protest too much.
Way too much.
A football field?
And if you read the last post, it clearly says: (b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
This was the condition when the overtaking vessel started to overtake the OP. After that, when he completed the pass, he was already way past the OP.
This should NOT be an issue.
A football field?!?
All I can say in my defense is this - had I been the other vessel, I would have made my course change in a such way that would not have required the other vessel to alter its course, unless I had a good reason. To me this is just common sense, why force a move by another vessel in a 640 sq mi lake when it would have been very easy to either tack sooner or later. Again, not a race, there were no other vessels, no navigation hazards to avoid, just open water.
I had the auto pilot on, was 2 miles offshore and had been on that steady course for over an hour and planned on being on it for another hour, what if I were not keeping watch? Why tempt fate?
I handled the situation correctly, I ducked behind him and gave him the road.
Its the difference between defensive vs offensive driving....
...and yes, there was a football fields distance, then he tacks, and that football field started getting smaller...we would have met hulls had I not defended.
I had the auto pilot on, was 2 miles offshore and had been on that steady course for over an hour and planned on being on it for another hour, what if I were not keeping watch? Why tempt fate?
I handled the situation correctly, I ducked behind him and gave him the road.
Its the difference between defensive vs offensive driving....
...and yes, there was a football fields distance, then he tacks, and that football field started getting smaller...we would have met hulls had I not defended.
I got reprimanded in here for ...
sailing single-handed with my deck sweeping genoa where I can't see much of anything ahead and to leeward.
This got me thinking that kpgraci is describing a situation to a "T" where I could t-bone a yacht without even knowing or thinking (having passed to leeward already and out of sight - out of mind) it was there!
sailing single-handed with my deck sweeping genoa where I can't see much of anything ahead and to leeward.
This got me thinking that kpgraci is describing a situation to a "T" where I could t-bone a yacht without even knowing or thinking (having passed to leeward already and out of sight - out of mind) it was there!
Ken, WADR, he still was not wrong. Sure, it would have been more convenient for YOU 'cuz you were on a course to somewhere. Maybe he was, too. I do, however, understand your concern, but if you re-read what you first wrote, you gave distances and then asked:
My question - should the downwind vessel have tacked while I was in this position?
The answer is it was perfectly "legal" for him to do so. It was not unreasonable for him to do so. It may well have been just a tad inconvenient for you, but I can't begin to tell you how many times I've been out on San Francisco Bay during the week when there are only one or two other boats anywhere within miles of me.
Guess what happens? It's like boats have magnets and they very often want to be in the same place at the same time. As I sail out the Bay heading north, I'm usually on port tack all the way from the Bay Bridge to the Golden Gate Bridge. Those guys coming south are all on starboard tack. I'm always lookin' out for them.
Sure, your guy, in your mind, kinda "cut you off." But think of it this way: you were smart, had your head out of the boat, and was aware of it, and did the right thing.
Why is doing the right thing something to be disgruntled about about the other guy?
Sure, you coulda been asleep at the wheel, as you or someone else said, but then the other guy woulda sailed past, got hit, or ducked.
Unless I'm missing the point, and so is Gail, your description of distances don't seem to add up.
Stay gruntled, it's easier.
My question - should the downwind vessel have tacked while I was in this position?
The answer is it was perfectly "legal" for him to do so. It was not unreasonable for him to do so. It may well have been just a tad inconvenient for you, but I can't begin to tell you how many times I've been out on San Francisco Bay during the week when there are only one or two other boats anywhere within miles of me.
Guess what happens? It's like boats have magnets and they very often want to be in the same place at the same time. As I sail out the Bay heading north, I'm usually on port tack all the way from the Bay Bridge to the Golden Gate Bridge. Those guys coming south are all on starboard tack. I'm always lookin' out for them.
Sure, your guy, in your mind, kinda "cut you off." But think of it this way: you were smart, had your head out of the boat, and was aware of it, and did the right thing.
Why is doing the right thing something to be disgruntled about about the other guy?
Sure, you coulda been asleep at the wheel, as you or someone else said, but then the other guy woulda sailed past, got hit, or ducked.
Unless I'm missing the point, and so is Gail, your description of distances don't seem to add up.
Stay gruntled, it's easier.
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