Rudder Repairs on '84 Beneteau First 38

[Doug in Lakeview]

Hi all,

Our ‘84 Beneteau First 38 is on the hard. We dropped the rudder while she was in the sling during haulout 2 weeks ago. Exceeding easy to do considering that this may have been the first time the rudder was dropped in 29 years. Stainless steel shaft looks good.

Apparently, the rudder has been water logged for quite a few years and therefore a small hole was drilled into the bottom of the rudder each year (after haulout) to allow water to drain prior to freezing weather conditions setting in over the winter. Then, each spring, the hole was filled with epoxy prior to applying annual VC17 bottom paint. The fiberglass skin is not ballooned out thus indicating that there was not enough water left in rudder to expand the skin.

Surveyor (2 years ago) noted that sounding with a phenolic hammer was “remarkable” (i.e., not solid) and also noted that moisture level was high (200 – 750) in the rudder. Moisture level was determined using a GE Aquant Protimeter with a 60 – 999 scale. (60 to 150 = DRY; 151 to 250 = HIGHER MOISTURE THAN NORMAL; 251 to 999 EXCESSIVE MOISTURE).

I interpret the “remarkable” comment to mean that when tapped with the hammer the rudder does not sound “soild” thus indicating that the rudder skin has become detached from the internal foam after 29 years.

Not sure yet if we can repair the rudder. Options are (a) new rudder from Beneteau for a lot of $$, (b) new rudder from Foss Foam Products of Florida for less $$, or (c) open up the old rudder and replace the foam followed by new fiberglass skin.

So, how solid does the rudder have to be? Any suggestions on plan of action?

 

[woodster]

will foss use your old rudder stock in the rebuild granted it is use able

 

[Doug in Lakeview]

Have not yet contacted FOSS. I would hope they could reuse the old rudder stock as it is VERY solid. The shaft is maybe 3 inches in diameter and solid. Lifting and moving the rudder was more than 2 guys could handle. Thus the yard put it on a pallet and used a forklift to move it once it was on the ground.

 

[Jumpstart]

Use an Oscillating tool and cut out 2 big windows on 1 side of the rudder. Dig out bad foam and inspect stainless spade in rudder. Replace with new foam core and take rudder to your favorite fiberglass guy. Have him repair windows. Fair it yourself with 3M vinylester fairing compound. Put Interprotect 2000/3000 on, VC17 and you are good for another 30 years. My guess is that fibreglass guy will charge you somewhere south of $500.

 

[TOPAJohn]

Replace Rudder Gearings

Doug: I am preparing to replace my First 38's rudder bearings. Is there a way I can contact you directly? jjkingjrnew1@gmail.com

Hi all,

Our ‘84 Beneteau First 38 is on the hard. We dropped the rudder while she was in the sling during haulout 2 weeks ago. Exceeding easy to do considering that this may have been the first time the rudder was dropped in 29 years. Stainless steel shaft looks good.

Apparently, the rudder has been water logged for quite a few years and therefore a small hole was drilled into the bottom of the rudder each year (after haulout) to allow water to drain prior to freezing weather conditions setting in over the winter. Then, each spring, the hole was filled with epoxy prior to applying annual VC17 bottom paint. The fiberglass skin is not ballooned out thus indicating that there was not enough water left in rudder to expand the skin.

Surveyor (2 years ago) noted that sounding with a phenolic hammer was “remarkable” (i.e., not solid) and also noted that moisture level was high (200 – 750) in the rudder. Moisture level was determined using a GE Aquant Protimeter with a 60 – 999 scale. (60 to 150 = DRY; 151 to 250 = HIGHER MOISTURE THAN NORMAL; 251 to 999 EXCESSIVE MOISTURE).

I interpret the “remarkable” comment to mean that when tapped with the hammer the rudder does not sound “soild” thus indicating that the rudder skin has become detached from the internal foam after 29 years.

Not sure yet if we can repair the rudder. Options are (a) new rudder from Beneteau for a lot of $$, (b) new rudder from Foss Foam Products of Florida for less $$, or (c) open up the old rudder and replace the foam followed by new fiberglass skin.

So, how solid does the rudder have to be? Any suggestions on plan of action?

 

[TOPAJohn]

Replacing Rudder Bearings First 38

Doug: I am preparing to replace my rudder bearings. Can I speak with you directly: jjkingjrnew1@gmail.com
[

QUOTE=Doug in Lakeview;1162893]Hi all,

Our ‘84 Beneteau First 38 is on the hard. We dropped the rudder while she was in the sling during haulout 2 weeks ago. Exceeding easy to do considering that this may have been the first time the rudder was dropped in 29 years. Stainless steel shaft looks good.

Apparently, the rudder has been water logged for quite a few years and therefore a small hole was drilled into the bottom of the rudder each year (after haulout) to allow water to drain prior to freezing weather conditions setting in over the winter. Then, each spring, the hole was filled with epoxy prior to applying annual VC17 bottom paint. The fiberglass skin is not ballooned out thus indicating that there was not enough water left in rudder to expand the skin.

Surveyor (2 years ago) noted that sounding with a phenolic hammer was “remarkable” (i.e., not solid) and also noted that moisture level was high (200 – 750) in the rudder. Moisture level was determined using a GE Aquant Protimeter with a 60 – 999 scale. (60 to 150 = DRY; 151 to 250 = HIGHER MOISTURE THAN NORMAL; 251 to 999 EXCESSIVE MOISTURE).

I interpret the “remarkable” comment to mean that when tapped with the hammer the rudder does not sound “soild” thus indicating that the rudder skin has become detached from the internal foam after 29 years.

Not sure yet if we can repair the rudder. Options are (a) new rudder from Beneteau for a lot of $$, (b) new rudder from Foss Foam Products of Florida for less $$, or (c) open up the old rudder and replace the foam followed by new fiberglass skin.

So, how solid does the rudder have to be? Any suggestions on plan of action?[/QUOTE]

 

[Gunni]

I'm dubious of this 'drill a hole in the bottom of the rudder and drain it', even though I do so each year. The rudder is full of foam, and skinned - the ability of water to migrate to the bottom and out of the rudder make as much sense as a sponge in a plastic bag drying out. Any moisture inside a rudder with a Stainless steel shaft and grid is subject to low-oxygen corrosion and failure. Especially after 29 years.

So, how solid does the rudder have to be? Any suggestions on plan of action?

Plan on replacement but what the hey, go ahead and cut it open, look for disintegrated core material and find the grid material that attaches to the rudder shaft. If it is shot, so is the rudder. 29 years ain't bad.

 

[Ken Cross]

Here ya go

Someone recently posted this link to a series of Youtube videos showing how to rebuild it. It sounds like a perfect match to your boat.

I think it was a series of 3 videos. Here is the first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRXNnFx7DBQ

Ken

 

[Scott T-Bird]

When the rudder eventually fails, I often wonder if it will fail catastrophically at the wrong time, or if there will be a clear indication, well in advance of a catastrophic failure. For instance, will the rudder start to feel like mush and obviously look like it's delaminating, or is it going to look and feel normal and then just break off while you're underway in the middle of Lake Michigan!

The photograph seems to show that your rudder looks like it is in fine shape. But you have to know that for 30 years it has probably been subjected to water inside the foam and freeze/thaw action over the winters.

I tried to get my rudder off this winter, but the yard said they weren't able to get the radial drive wheel off without breaking it, so we gave up. It seems that the SS bolts have seized to the aluminum casting. I have the same concerns as you, since I have recently noticed a small amount of water weeping from the seam near the top edge near the rudder stock and seeping from a small abrasion at the bottom edge of my rudder where I can actually feel the foam. It weeps for just a few days right after the boat is pulled out and then seems to dry up - usually before we have freezing weather. I'm in the camp that feels that drilling weep holes at the end of the season is a waste of time.

Since it is 30 years old, I'm inclined to simply purchase a new one from Foss Foam, since they have the mold, but I feel no urgency, considering that I haven't been able to discern any difference in the rudder over the past 10 years, and it's likely that it has been in this same condition for at least 20 years. But failure in my location would be a minor nuisance more than a safety issue. I intend to purchase a new one eventually, when the need is more urgent.

Why not purchase from Foss? It seems to me that the manufacturing of the rudder is identical. I'd not be surprised if a new rudder from Beneteau is simply manufactured by somebody like Foss (or Foss) with a mark-up. If you go the new purchase route, I'd not re-use the old stock ... who's going to guarantee it and if you are concerned about the effect of water over the years (enough concern to warrant a new rudder), then why take a chance? Not worth it in my mind.

 

[Doug in Lakeview]

Hello to all,

Just wanted to post a follow-up on to my original questions regarding rudder repairs. A couple of days ago I posted the following to a thread (Rudder repair - beneteau 375 - foam core) started by s2fast4u. Repost of my reply follows.
_________________________________________________

We have a 1984 Beneteau First 38 which we purchased in spring 2013. At the time of purchase our surveyor noted the following: “RUDDER: No movement when mild force applied. Paint coverage is good. Soundings remarkable on majority of rudder, moisture meter readings 200-750. No signs of impact. Water appears to be leaking from bottom of rudder. Repair as needed.”

Here in Chicago it is somewhat common for water to infiltrate into the rudders during the sailing season. Many boat owners then drill a small hole into the base of the rudder at haulout to allow water to drain prior to freezing temperatures and winter arriving. In the spring the drain hole is patched (3M 4200) prior to launch. Apparently this had been done for many years on our boat’s rudder as evidenced by the numerous patched holes at the bottom of the rudder.

We considered (a) new rudder from BENETEAU, (b) new rudder from Foss Foam Products of Florida (www.newrudders.com), (c) rebuilt rudder by Foss Foam utilizing our existing rudder post, or (d) rebuilt rudder by local fiberglass shop. We shopped around and selected Skyway Yacht Works here in Chicago.

Scope of work included:

· Test moisture in rudder with moisture meter
· Fiberglass repair - grind open an inspection panel at bottom of rudder
· Remove sample of foam to ascertain moisture content - it's soaked; thus proceed to next steps
· Fabricate a template for reconstruction
· Fiberglass repair - cut open port side of rudder to expose foam
· Remove all foam, sand and vacuum cavity of any loose debris
· Wipe out cavity with solvent to remove any moisture holding debris
· Fiberglass repair - fill cavity with foam
· Fiberglass repair - course shaping - shave foam to approximate shape of rudder
· Fiberglass repair - fine shaping - sand foam to precise shape of rudder using template
· Fiberglass repair - cut fiberglass to shape
· Vacuum bag new glass in place
· Fill, fair and sand rudder where needed
· Paint sanded rudder with barrier coat

Upon opening up the rudder Skyway commented that this original 1984 Beneteau rudder was exceedingly well built – overbuilt compared to today’s boats and that the solid stainless steel rudder post (2.75 in OD, = 70 mm OD) and 4 horizontal tabs were all in great condition – solid welds and again overbuilt. Under no circumstances would they recommend fabricating a new rudder post. Thus we reused the existing rudder post.

Longest part of the project was the “drying out” of the shell of the old rudder after removal of the wet foam. Measured moisture levels on the inside of the glass took a while to drop. This was in a heated workshop. In the end the shop had to use heat lamps to get everything nice and dry prior to installing new foam.



Here's a link to 41 photos of the process.
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=638E595E68A95E10!658&authkey=!AFinjbYmYUfwnXg&ithint=folder,pdf

 

[Sefuller]

Our O'day 34 had a wet rudder with some minor delamination. I cut windows in the delaminated area, and vacuum bagged the rudder to dry the core. It took a couple of days, but it did get the foam dry. I re-glassed the windows, and ground out a groove around area where the post enters the top of the rudder - which is where the moisture was entering. I sealed the groove with Sikaflex 291 if I remember correctly. That was 5 or 6 years ago and it is still dry.

 

[jcb2]

I suggest you contact Joel at Ruddercraft.com for a quote on a new HDPE rudder. I've bought two from them (for Santana 2023C and O'Day 31) and have been very happy with the quality and value. Also you'll never have to worry about water infiltration again.

 

[s2fast4u]

Anyone know which side should be opened? I mean, the opposite side of laminated bars ( mid eighties beneteau).

 

[Olivier]

Hello,
I just opened my First 38 (1983) rudder, which was extremely wet inside, and removed the foam. I had a big surprise, as there was a pretty big void in the foam right in the center of the rudder (see the attached picture). Looks like the manufacturer miscalculated the amount of foam needed and closed the whole thing while the foam was still expanding (see picture in the link below).
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/PHxY2UWFqIeNd7FpvZjLsouzMrbg6aV61oQfZuvoG8I?feat=directlink

I removed the wet foam, and now I am trying to determine which density to use for the rebuilt process. On a few forums, I saw people used 16 pound foam (and as we know, things on the Internet are always right). However, I am pretty sure that the old foam density was 2 pound (max 4 pound). Also the metal frame looks in good condition, and the whole assembly pretty solid. Any opinion on this?
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/tK7LbV7BAGQkc1Ii3sc0o4uzMrbg6aV61oQfZuvoG8I?feat=directlink

Doug, do you know which density was used by Skyway on your new rudder?

 

[Doug in Lakeview]

Hi Olivier,

I don't know the density of foam that Skyway used. However, I will be at the boatyard today applying VC17 anti-foulant paint. I will see if I can find out what foam they used. Last November, when we were hauled out of the water for winter storage the rebuilt rudder look perfect - so we are very pleased with the work done by Skyway.

How long have you had your '83 First 38? And what hull number? We are #178. Our hull was laid up in the mold in September 1983.

 

[Olivier]

Doug,
Thanks for your reply. If you can get the information from Skyway on the foam density, that would be very helpful for my upcoming work.
We purchased the boat last September, and have been working on it since then. There is a lot to do (removed the paint and antifouling last fall, changed the cushion this winter, need to change the keel bolts next month, redo the rudder which was soaking wet, need to install roller furling, dodger). However, we are still happy of the purchase, as the boat is in good condition (no osmosis or delamination on the hull or rudder). I am not sure how to get the hull # from the HIN, but I believe it was done on October 1983.

 

[s2fast4u]

Dear Olivier,
I did repair the rudder on my F375 and I can share with you some pictures if you want! I did exactly the same jjob you are going to do; opening one side of the rudder and removing the wet foam. I did use a 12lbs closed cells foam to repair and put back the cover in place. I don't know how to post pictures on this website but I can send them to you by email if you want. Just contact me with private message and I'll be able to share more details with you.
Cheers!

 

[Doug in Lakeview]

Olivier,

Skyway said they used about 5 lbs/ft3 (= 80 kg/m3) foam. The foam is not the main structural component of the rudder. The stainless steel rudder post/grid and the external fiberglass shell do most of the work. I'd agree that 12 lbs/fts is nice (bit more weight) but have no idea if it is necessary.

 

[DannyS]

Here is a repair I did about 5 years ago on our O'day 35.
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/rudder-delamination-followup.117497/#post-744783

 

[Tally Ho]

How much did Skyway charge for the rudder repair?
I am in NW Indiana (close to Skyway). My 1988 O'Day 322 has had a repair made to the rudder at some point in the past and may need to be rebuilt.

Greg