rudder removal

David

.
Jun 17, 2004
115
Macgregor 26x Morecambe
In my quest to remove the rudder I have hit a bit of a snag. I removed a nut from the lower part of the rudder post and removed the quadrant from the upper part. At this point, it would have been nice to use a couple of wrenches and remove the locking nuts at the top of this stuffing box:


However, I have no idea what type of wrenches and what size wrenches would have pursuaded such frozen pieces to separate. Any ideas?

So I removed the screws holding the rudder post stuffing box down and just slid it right off the top of the rudder post. I had hoped that now--with a little pursuasion of the hammer type--that the rudder post would just lift up and out of the rudder. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

I don't really know how this is all put together, but I believe that the top of the rudder is a metal fitting and is all one piece with the rudder reinforcing webbing. I would imagine that the rudderpost is square where it enters and locks into the rudder.

I intend to drop the shaft so that I have a little more room to swing a bigger hammer at the bottom of the rudder post to pursuade it to leave.

Any suggestions?
 
A

Anonymous

Wrenching problem

Dave, do you think the two rows of holes describe the two different pieces? If so, there's a pretty common kind of wrench that grabs 'em. Picture a handle attached to a turned half moon; the inside curve of the half moon is the diameter of the ring the holes are in; the outside curve is decorative. Better yet, hold your right hand flattish while grabbing a coffee mug with the thumb opposed. Imagine the wrench handle as your wrist, the diameter of the mug the same as the offending locking ring, and most important, a teeny pin sticking out of your pointing fingertip which is the diameter and depth to drop into one of the holes in the ring. You'll need to make two of these, one for each dia.

If you can read AutoCAD, I'll send you a sketch, or I can save it as a .pdf.

Doug
 

David

.
Jun 17, 2004
115
Macgregor 26x Morecambe
open face spanner wrench

I'm not sure that I want to be fabricating tools. Any idea where to buy these wrenches? I'll check with a couple of local tool rental places to see I if can just rent them.
 
A

Anonymous

Wrenching activities

By all means try to find something ready made. (Possibly metric, though should not matter, since a misfit won't matter much.)

Since tool-making is what distinguishes us from apes, don't be reluctant! Lazy, cheap, and expedient are valid avoidance reasons, though. You oughta' see my collection of tools I modified to work on the old Volvo overdrive. You might also think about using a pair of oil filter wrenches, either lucky to be the right diameter, or by modifying the length of the strap, or by adding the indexing pin. Perhaps a robust ell-shaped bit of metal with the pin inserted on the short leg would be easy to make, but it would have less mechanical advantage since the lever arm would be the radius of the object instead of the diameter, amounts to twice the shear load on the pin.

Not much load on these wrenches upon reassembly, all you're doing is squeezing the packing against the shaft. Start by dousing the thing with penetrating fluid to ease dissassembly.

I wonder if Le Comte used the same fitting on Quetzal? I'll try to remember to peek this weekend.

D
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
I can't help with the rudder but 2 pipe wrenches should

loosen the packing gland. I don't have the correct tool either for the gland on rudder or shaft. I'm still waiting to hear about getting the rudder out.
 
A

Anonymous

Remove rudder

Dave,

Keeping in mind that both our Le Comte N E 38 and our Morgan 27 have rudders cantilevered down out of the hull, I have a dumb question: Doesn't a rudder just lift out of a shoe fitting? You've removed the upper bearing, and the steering stuff, so I could imagine there's enough slop to tip the rudder a bit sideways after you've lifted it out of its lower bearing. The associated trick at our marina is the way to get enough clearance to drop the rudder so the post clears the hull; the marina yard is gravel over softish earth. Even with as open as Alarm is, your Challengers might have lower bearings that need to be removed to allow the rudder to drop out of the hull (I imagined the slop offered by removal of the upper bearing...) On Island Packets, and some others, the bolts retaining the lower bearing are obvious; on others, like my buddies' '68 Swan 43, the bolts are glassed in.

D
 
Jun 28, 2004
50
rudder packing gland

Dave,

Your rudder packing box is tha same as on Whisper - also the same as the prop shaft stuffing box. A quick and dirty tool (my ususal recourse) is a steel rod filed down at the end to a diameter to fit in the hole, and bent about 45 degrees to provide an angle so that you can tap the end of the rod while the bent end engages a hole.

The lower nut in your figure is the locking nut.

With this I can adjust the stuffing box while sitting down at the manhole in the cockpit, without submerging my head in the hole.

Rick
 

David

.
Jun 17, 2004
115
Macgregor 26x Morecambe
pictures

D: I don't think that I can just lift the rudder out of the shoe fitting. Here are some pictures: http://reno2.com/alden/images/949/Reno/20050519/ I think that I need to remove the rudder post first, then tilt the top of the rudder to the side a little, then lift.

Rick: Thanks for the recommendation on a tool to open the rudder post stuffing box.
 
A

Anonymous

Like nothing

I've ever seen, before! I think you're right. I'm now curious enough th look at some boats (the rudder post on a 60's Pearson Triton, with the wooden rudder, is bent to the shape of the propeller cutout, extends down to the shoe).

The suggested bent rod tool looks promising, and easy. Thanks, goes in my tool box, particularly if I've got the same packing.

Good luck getting it apart; with luck the post, nut, and rudder interior fitting are all bronze and not all the same piece due to corrosion. I ended up removing the rudder from the Morgan in order to get the propeller shaft and propeller home for leasurely and sufficiently persuasive attention. I stood it up and doused it with penetrating fluid for a couple of weeks. I left a gear puller in place and under load for that period. Ended up heating the prop and swatting the puller (enough to mush the threads a bit but not enough to transmute the shaft into scrap!) Similar difficulty in removing the cutless; took it off and home (so as to not hammer on the boat); ended up cutting the cutless lengthwise internally, twice, and removing the slice; successful in not cutting into the strut.

I've got my spi pole standing in a can of paint remover. The aluminum pole is corroded, and sealed to the stainless end fitting with 5200 or similar. With sufficient time, perhaps the p.r. will destroy enough 5200, and with sufficient luck the corrosion will not have swollen enough to keep the thing locked together. Heating seems like a great idea until you realize that the aluminum expands farther than the stainless and tends to tighten things rather than loosen 'em. Heating with a torch reminds you that paint remover is flammable.

The difference between us amateurs and gifted mechanics is a world of knowledge!
 

jsmall

.
Mar 25, 2005
41
Dufour 31 Seaford VA.
I have a Pearson Triton that I sail now (until the Challenger is done). I built a new rudder for this boat the year before last. The rudder post extends to the prop cutout, but ends halfway through the cutout. The post is sort of a backwards shallow "L" shape. The Triton rudder (as original) is supported by the pintels and gudgeons and has no shoe. When I removed the rudder I removed the pintels, dug a hole and dropped the rudder post and all.
Jimmy Small[/img]
 
A

Anonymous

Hmmmm

...well, I'm not gonna' swim down under 'Carolina' and check her (and my memory)! She's sailed by a single woman and her old Lab; nice to see.
 
A

Anonymous

Huge nuts!

Well, I hung myself upside down in the lazarette this weekend for long enough to look at Q's rudder packing. It's the chunkiest pair of hex nuts that I've ever seen other than on a steam locomotive, or on one of the steam engines in the Olympia ("You may fire when ready, Gridley...). About 4 1/2" across the hex, the upper one is about 2 1/4" thick, the lower about 3/4". The rudder shaft is about 1 3/4 in dia, cantilevered rudder. The upper end of the shaft is hidden in the bearing plates, quadrants, cables and all, associated with the binnacle. I get to explore and dissect all this in order to remove, dry and repair the rudder this coming winter and to repair the cockpit floor.

It's clear that more than the Challengers require dissassembly of rudder shafts in order to remove rudders. Good luck!
 

Orca

.
Jun 27, 2005
9
Re: pictures

david said:
D: I don't think that I can just lift the rudder out of the shoe fitting. Here are some pictures: http://reno2.com/alden/images/949/Reno/20050519/ I think that I need to remove the rudder post first, then tilt the top of the rudder to the side a little, then lift.
I realize that this reply isn't timely, since by now your rudder problems are probably solved, but the tool you were looking for is a spanner wrench used to remove large outboard propellers (Mercury, I think). You were correct in guessing that the shaft would have to be removed prior to dropping the rudder. The rudder is hung on a keyed, tapered shaft, held on by the nut shown in your pictures. There are 2 of them and they may be removed with an appropriate sized deep socket.

I have photos, but unfortunatly couldn't include them with this post.

Rick
 

David

.
Jun 17, 2004
115
Macgregor 26x Morecambe
what nut?

Orca,

Thanks for replying, the rudder hasn't moved and I'm still trying to figure out how to remove it. Thanks for the confirmation that the rudder post is keyed into the rudder, that makes sense. It also tells me that I probably need a puller to force the two to separate.

I removed one nut from the rudder shaft. The nut promptly cracked in half (I have no idea what it was made of, almost seemed like hardened clay if you can believe that). I didn't see another nut. The pictures don't seem to show another nut either, see here for example:
http://reno2.com/alden/images/949/Reno/20050519/tn/rudder5_closeup.jpg.html

Sorry about the inability to post photos, please email them to me and I'll post them on my site. My address is david@reno2.com.
 

Orca

.
Jun 27, 2005
9
It's been a few years back since I removed Orca's rudder, but I don't remember any great difficulty. Like you, I removed the stuffing box, but after removing the retaining nut/nuts, I think the shaft lifted right out. You might try a gentle tap with a 4# hammer, after protecting the threads with a nut, to encourage seperation of the taper. Dropping the rudder involved either loosening or removing the gudgeon and lifting the rudder out of the heel gudgeon.

There was some minor corrosion in the shaft, but most of it was in the nuts - probably why yours disintergrated and, at one time, you might have had a locking backup nut. Since a friend owns a machine shop, I replaced the shaft and nuts (5/8") and I also drilled and tapped into the pintle straps so I could install a tear drop shapped zinc. A small zinc was also installed on the gudgeon, since I replaced its bronze screws with stainless.

Please remember that I'm talking Zephyr here and not Challenger, but from what I've seen the construction is very similar.

Rick

David - thanks for storage - shaft photos are here - http://reno2.com/alden/images/949/Orca/20050717/
 

David

.
Jun 17, 2004
115
Macgregor 26x Morecambe
still working on the rudder

Well, believe it or not, I'm still working on the rudder. My best guess is that the tapered end of the rudder post is seized up with the bronze rudder top.

I've tried hammering it out, I've tried using a jack to push it up. My next attempt will be a bit more drastic.

I need to either cut away some of the fiberglass above the rudder so that I can fit a puller on the top of the rudder and pull the rudder off the shaft (i.e. push the shaft up and break apart the two seized parts) or I need to cut the rudder shaft.

I'm leaning towards cutting the rudder shaft. I think my sawzall with a metal cutting blade should fit it there and cut it. Before I do this though, any ideas on what a new shaft would cost?

Regards,
David
 

David

.
Jun 17, 2004
115
Macgregor 26x Morecambe
cutting the rudder shaft

Well, the rudder shaft removal is going slow. The normal metal cutting blades were instantly reduced toothless after little cutting. I bought this new blade at Home Depot:

• Coarse Grit, 9 in. Length, Tungsten Carbide Blade
• Medium and coarse grits for cutting hardwood flooring, cast iron, stainless steel, fiberglass materials, (polyesters, epoxies, melamines), ceramic tile, stone, slate, clay pipe, carbon, brick, plaster, marble, and chalkboard.

It's making progress, but pretty slow. I had imagined it cutting much faster. It will take several sessions and sore arms to cut through it.
 

David

.
Jun 17, 2004
115
Macgregor 26x Morecambe
success!

The rudder is off. Here is an image of the culprit:


The photo is toned to highlight the two inch band of corrosion around the thick part of the taper. Once the rudder was off I was able to put a puller on the rudder and get this end out.

I'm a little excited to get the rudder off. This thing has been a thorn for some time, but I finally had to commit and just cut it off to get past it. Now, I'll need to have a new post made up of course. That's another post though [no pun intended].

Here is one more photo:


8)
 
Apr 7, 2006
103
David- As we left our mooring to go to the boat yard to have the mast picked Cindy announced she had no steerage to stb. After doing multiple doughnuts in Cosy Harbor we latched on to an empty mooring & I jumped over the side to check it out- Turns out we had the mast and boat hauled that morning after we towed her to the yard with our outboard.

What had happened was all the screws but one holding the wood blade to the bronze part of the rudder post were long since missing/sheared off. There had been one left holding on but that finally bit the bullet.

It looks from the photos that you cut the rudder off above the bronze piece, but what I can't tell is where the part you show as the culprit in the photo comes from- did that go into the bronze piece?- Mine looks square. I got the rudder off and now all that is sticking down is the curved bronze piece! Still have remove the bronze piece to put in one screw that is in tha part and then put the rudder back in...

On a total different thread we have all our spars in the front yard, have totally stripped the white paint off, are in the process of sanding/bleaching/sanding/etc. Does any one have an idea of what the min. coats of varnish would be if we cann't get 10-12 on this fall? I'd hate to have to start all over in the spring! we plan to do a nice cover that will let the mast breath, etc. The main boom, and mizzen spars can be storeed inside our house. Getting the 48' mast to our house on a 25' trailer was interesting too- but not bad after labor day when there only 600 of us left on the island!