Rudder Modifications

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Aug 27, 2011
408
Catalina 27 Titusville, FL
Has anyone done any kind of modifications to their rudder?

I have thoughts of putting on a balance tab similar to what we have on the leading edge of the aircraft control surfaces. They are primarily for mass balance, but also serve an aerodynamic purpose too. I thought a 8 to 10 inch tall tab that sticks out from the front of the rudder about 10 inches or so would help reduce the effort required to move the tiller.

If anyone know about aerobatic aircraft, my thoughts it would act similar to aileron spades.

Thoughts?
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
King, I am very familiar with the aileron, and the leading edges that benefit performance aircraft. But......I'm not sure of whether this would be applicable or not on a rudder. Although I'm truly treading on the ground of a yacht designer, naval architect, or even shipwright, (and I am not close to being either), but my guess would be no. The reason I think this is, is I have never seen a leading edge on a rudder, they are all trailing. I'm thinking that the resistances inherent in water would be MUCH more than air. In fact, I know this, and I'm sure you do too. There may be some rudders like this that do exist, but I can not remember seeing one that had any more rudder material forward of the stock, than is necessary to hold the rudder to the post.

VERY interesting thought. And now, durn you, I'll probably have to think on this myself. I'd be interested in more thoughts on this.

And by no means let MY opinion stop this idea. You may be on the edge of innovation.
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
Another thought, tank test the concept. I'd think a scaled down model would be easy to make. Shoot, now I may try it.
 
Aug 27, 2011
408
Catalina 27 Titusville, FL
LOL Chris... There are some HDPE rudders that you can buy that have the hinge points aft of the leading edge. My thoughts were to construct a tape on temporary cuff that can be experimented with to adapt my existing rudder in lieu of a whole new rudder. I figure with the significant hydro vs aero dynamics, the cuff wouldn't need to be large at all.

If you look at the majority of small fabric covered aircraft, there is a pretty good sized forward tab on the rudder that reduces the control forces. This is where I was heading with this idea.

And you are welcome Chris, for giving you yet another project! LOL ;)
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Some of the racers will place a spacer under the top mount to kick the lower leading edge forward to help ballance the tiller, but according to the racing rules, the leading edge can't be forward of the transom line.

But.......

The best rudder mod I made was buying a Rudder-Craft one. Two fingers on the tiller is all thats required, haven't rounded-up since I installed it, just an unbelievable improvement in the boat! Screw the rules!

Don
 
Aug 27, 2011
408
Catalina 27 Titusville, FL
Yeah, I dont really plan on racing. I want to enjoy my time on the boat, not workout my arms. Also, in case I do want to race, if they are that sticky on the rules, it will be removable. PS I don't keep my rudder installed when at the dock. I take it off and put it below decks.
 
Aug 27, 2011
408
Catalina 27 Titusville, FL
I do eventually want to construct an all new rudder. I will probably carve it out of wood, shape and fair, and then glass it. It will be the right shape, but not a kick up style.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
I think you will find that any appendage placed forward of the gudgeons will not need to protrude much forward to reduce effort. the 10" forward you suggest would probably cause the rudder to behave badly... VERY badly... Think about how hard the rudder will go over when backing down.... Then think if it did that going forward.... Years ago when I was a Mac forum contributor we did a lot of discussing regarding rudder mods, (Mac owners are always modding!!!!) and at least there, we learned it dowsn't take much.


Proividing a little balance could be handy, and I am the first one to agree after all my years on a stock C22, but I bet you will find an inch or so added forward is all you will want or need. Remember, a perfectly balanced helm may seem like an ideal, but it is or can be dangerous in the event of a solo MOB. You really do want the boat to round up in the event you fall overboard.....
 
Aug 11, 2011
759
catalina 22 Islamorada
Just curious but if anything is forward of the rudder wouldnt that make the boat incredibly hard for the boat to track a straight line?
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Just curious but if anything is forward of the rudder wouldnt that make the boat incredibly hard for the boat to track a straight line?
No. Consider this very basic explanation: If you remove the rudder completely, a rudderless boat will sail dead straight if the center of effort of your sails is directly over the keel and hull's center of effort. The rudderless boat will always round up if the sail plan's center of effort is aft of the keel and hull's. The rudderless boat will always head down if the sail plan's CE is forward of the hull and keel's CE... This is how a windsurfer steers, by moving the sail fore and aft.

For most boats, a little weather helm is desirable, and can be affected by tweaking mast rake forward or aft, moving the CE of the sail plan. A lot of weather helm though, (boat wanting to turn up) will be bad, as it will cause fatigue at the tiller, as you are always having to provide input, and it is slow as you are always dragging a "brake" in the form of a rudder off-center.

Your rudder contributes to the center of effort of the underwater parts of the boat, such that the CE moves aft slightly with respect to the rudderless boat above, but its primary function is to affect change to course. Left un-tended, the boat's "desire" to go straight or not is a function of the relative placement of the sail plan's CE with respect to the CE of the underwater portion of the boat. Ever steer by simply adjusting your sails? It is totally doable...

For the rudder, the discussion will be typically what force input required to affect a change in course, as opposed to simply holding course. For a rudder whose area is wholly behind the hinge, (pintles and gudgeons) the force required to be input by you will be "X" as an arbitrary value. If you put a small amount of the rudder in front of its hinge, you shrink the moment arm between the rudder's CE and the hinge, resulting in you needing force "less than X" at the tiller to steer.

As you put more of the rudder in front of the hinge, the rudder's moment arm continues to shrink, further lowering the amount of effort you need to input via the tiller to affect a course change, but you can only go so far. The portion of the rudder in front of the hinge point "wants" to be behind the hinge, trailing like streamers in the wind, (or trailing as a rudder, duh :) ) as it were. There will be a point where the rudder will want to oscillate. I am totally unsure of the ratio and it probably varies based on rudder form, but there will be a point where too much rudder in front of the hinge is bad, even if the effort required at the tiller is still decreasing.

Just FYI, If at the extreme oposite, all the rudder's area is forward of the hinge, you will need to input force "X" or greater basically all the time, as the rudder will want to flop violently around, so that it is trailing, rather than leading. Such a boat would be very difficult to control. Your best example again will be to consider how hard you fight your tiller when backing in reverse, where in effect, all or most of your rudder is now "ahead" of the hinge...

Again, this is a very simple explanation, but hopefully it makes the topic more clear?
 
Jul 1, 2012
155
Catalina C22 Georgetown
I'm kind of curious as to how air vs. water relate in terms of fluid dynamics. I would think they are totally different, as lift is created through compression of air and water can't be compressed- so how would a wing relate to a rudder?
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
For what it's worth, on my new Rudder-Craft,(single piece style), the leading edge is less than an inch in front of the pivit line.....and it's PERFECT!

I thought lift,(Bernoulli's principal), has based on the speed of the air, or water, having to travel faster to cover the same distance reduces the pressure, which creates the potential for lift. I agree a fluid is not compressable, but we don't sail in an enclosed environment either.

Don
 
Aug 27, 2011
408
Catalina 27 Titusville, FL
@Phil You are right, on those newer style rudders, it is less than an inch forward of the hinge line, however that is the whole length of the rudder, perhaps my 10 inch estimate is too high. I will have to play around a bit to see what works and what don't. I don't sweat a solo MOB situation, as my wife and I always go out together. But good thoughts to remember.

I love the ruddercraft rudder, too rich for my blood at this time.

As for the Hydro vs. Aero dynamics. Air is a fluid, at least that is how we think of it with aircraft. You just need WAYYY more surface area than under water.

Lift is created in on an aircraft wing not by compressing the air, it is by the speed difference of the air flowing faster over the upper surface of a wing creating lower pressure than the air flowing under the wing. To give you an idea, check out the wing area required for an average 3500 pound aircraft, well upwards of 300+ square feet. If you ever check out the TINYYYY little hydro foils on these hot rod power boats that "fly" out of the water they are just 2 or 3 square feet each maybe for a total of 6 square feet. (I may be off, but not by much)

That having been said, Don is right, Bernoulli's priniciple is what makes our sails work, keel work and rudder work. The only time Bernoulli isn't at work is when you are wing & wing or have the kite up. if your sails are on the same side you are relying on the air flowing through the slot to propel the boat forward.

That is why I love flying and sailing so much, they are almost identical!
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,173
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Has anyone done any kind of modifications to their rudder?

I have thoughts of putting on a balance tab similar to what we have on the leading edge of the aircraft control surfaces. They are primarily for mass balance, but also serve an aerodynamic purpose too. I thought a 8 to 10 inch tall tab that sticks out from the front of the rudder about 10 inches or so would help reduce the effort required to move the tiller.

If anyone know about aerobatic aircraft, my thoughts it would act similar to aileron spades.

Thoughts?
I don't see much benefit on the rudder.... but you might consider adding a vertical trim tab to the back of your keel/center board. That's something that has been done before.

If you're having trouble moving your tiller on a 22 foot boat... you need wheel steering... or better sail trim.... or a clean bottom.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
KingAirDriver said:
@Phil You are right, on those newer style rudders, it is less than an inch forward of the hinge line, however that is the whole length of the rudder, perhaps my 10 inch estimate is too high. I will have to play around a bit to see what works and what don't. I don't sweat a solo MOB situation, as my wife and I always go out together. But good thoughts to remember.

I love the ruddercraft rudder, too rich for my blood at this time.

As for the Hydro vs. Aero dynamics. Air is a fluid, at least that is how we think of it with aircraft. You just need WAYYY more surface area than under water.

Lift is created in on an aircraft wing not by compressing the air, it is by the speed difference of the air flowing faster over the upper surface of a wing creating lower pressure than the air flowing under the wing. To give you an idea, check out the wing area required for an average 3500 pound aircraft, well upwards of 300+ square feet. If you ever check out the TINYYYY little hydro foils on these hot rod power boats that "fly" out of the water they are just 2 or 3 square feet each maybe for a total of 6 square feet. (I may be off, but not by much)

That having been said, Don is right, Bernoulli's priniciple is what makes our sails work, keel work and rudder work. The only time Bernoulli isn't at work is when you are wing & wing or have the kite up. if your sails are on the same side you are relying on the air flowing through the slot to propel the boat forward.

That is why I love flying and sailing so much, they are almost identical!
I agree!

I want to make my own someday. Ruddercraft price seems fair to make a profit off a low volume item though; talk about niche market...

10 inches forward is too much, too high. . Forward of the keel anyway. :D. Recall on points of heeling upper portions of the rudder are out of the water or high enough to cause cavitation. Put your total proposed area in mind in context and lay it spread out all the way along the front to the bottom. It might be that 1/2 inch...
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Go get a white oak dowel, soak and seal it, and fair it in. From memory a 1/2 or 3/4 inch dowel will give you room to fill and fair while adding up to an inch forward.
 
Nov 16, 2010
81
Catalina 22 Mactaquac Headpond
Hi

Planning to build a new Naca 0012 rudder this winter using white oak and red cedar with carbon fibre glass over (can't afford the production units either). I agree with Phil that the amount forward should not be to great. Around an inch is good and it should run the length of the rudder from transom bottom down (thats my plan). Water and air act the same in fluid dynamics, air is just less dense.

A small change in the water makes a big difference. Don't over exagerate anything. A little weatherhelm is desirable for safety and for increased pointing capability as the slight lift from the rudder increases the lift to windward of the keel. The original Cat rudder is not really efficiently aerodynamic and generates minimal lift hence the steerage issues with the C22.

Like the dowel idea - simple and cheap. A shaped strip of wood (white oal is good) with a groove milled in for the leading edge and then shaped and faired could be used to improve the shape of the rudder to bring it closer to a real foil.

Hope this helps.

John
 
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