Went sailing today on my 260 with some friends and the boat would not hold course. We didnt have any signifigant gusts(that I could tell, and they are hard to miss) but the wind seemed to be shifting but more or less north/north/west and pretty strong for a 260, eventually reefed. It would vary in velocity but I wouldnt really call the changes a full blown gust, in any event it continually rounded up. I would round up then fall off and continue my tack but sure enough I would be constantly steering more to leeward untill i had no more rudder travel left and then she would round up and we start the whole process over again. Things you should know! The outter stay on the starboard side is loose as a rusult of my own brilliance in raising the mast. Also when looked down to see the rudder it "looked" as if it was being bent up to windward, like it was water pressure trieing to bend it up. Might be light refraction might be actually bending up, who knows? So anyone know what i was doing wrong today? I have sailed in almost identical conditions with out rounding up or reefing for that matter. Was it the rigging being loose or is something wrong with the rudder? One more thing the top of the rudder(when in sailing position) is all split apart and you can see under the paint and stuff. Thanks in advance, Brad
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Brian
been there, in my case......
I've been in that situation myself. It turned out I was trimming my main in to tight, and that was causing the boat to want to turn into the wind. If you balance your sails perfectly, your boat should keep its heading on its own.
I've been in that situation myself. It turned out I was trimming my main in to tight, and that was causing the boat to want to turn into the wind. If you balance your sails perfectly, your boat should keep its heading on its own.
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Rick Macdonald
bent rudder
You didn't say how much you were heeled. If you go stick a knife blade into a sink of water, you'll see that the refraction makes it appear bent up in any position except vertical. I've read that the leeward shroud should never be loose. I don't know if this is just dangerous, or if it also affects trim and balance. What point of sail were you on, and how was the main trimmed?
You didn't say how much you were heeled. If you go stick a knife blade into a sink of water, you'll see that the refraction makes it appear bent up in any position except vertical. I've read that the leeward shroud should never be loose. I don't know if this is just dangerous, or if it also affects trim and balance. What point of sail were you on, and how was the main trimmed?
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Brad
sailtrim
Main sail was trimmed to tightly, so that we would heel over more. Wasnt really looking to sail properly as much because the crew wanted to heel over a lot. Neither of them sail very often and have more fun that way. I would tighten the stay but Im not really sure how much to tension it.I was on a port tack close hauled. And as far as refraction, I dont know the heel angle exactly but it was considerable, which would obviously make the rudder apear to be bent. But I was trying to take that into account and still looked bent to me. As if it were bent too much. Now when I reefed the sail everything sailed just fine and no more rounding up. What my main question is why did it round up when not reefed, when previously I have the boat in the same conditions with out rounding up. Thanks Brad
Main sail was trimmed to tightly, so that we would heel over more. Wasnt really looking to sail properly as much because the crew wanted to heel over a lot. Neither of them sail very often and have more fun that way. I would tighten the stay but Im not really sure how much to tension it.I was on a port tack close hauled. And as far as refraction, I dont know the heel angle exactly but it was considerable, which would obviously make the rudder apear to be bent. But I was trying to take that into account and still looked bent to me. As if it were bent too much. Now when I reefed the sail everything sailed just fine and no more rounding up. What my main question is why did it round up when not reefed, when previously I have the boat in the same conditions with out rounding up. Thanks Brad
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Steve Kamp
Cracked Rudder
Brad, regarding your rudder being cracked, see your dealer and/or contact Greg Emerson at the factory: there was a series of defective rudders put out in late 2002. Most of them were defective near the top or the pivot point. If there is any play at all near the pivot point your rudder will bend and if you're lucky you will round up to weather. If you're not lucky, your rudder will break off, making for a busy day sitting at the motor, facing to the rear, while you try to shove the motor left or right as a crew member gives directions. My experience with this is second hand as related to me by Chet Lawson of Lake Hartwell, S.C., and confirmed by my dealer. Good Luck, Steve Kamp H 260 "Carolina Girl"
Brad, regarding your rudder being cracked, see your dealer and/or contact Greg Emerson at the factory: there was a series of defective rudders put out in late 2002. Most of them were defective near the top or the pivot point. If there is any play at all near the pivot point your rudder will bend and if you're lucky you will round up to weather. If you're not lucky, your rudder will break off, making for a busy day sitting at the motor, facing to the rear, while you try to shove the motor left or right as a crew member gives directions. My experience with this is second hand as related to me by Chet Lawson of Lake Hartwell, S.C., and confirmed by my dealer. Good Luck, Steve Kamp H 260 "Carolina Girl"
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C Smith
My 2 cents worth...
I absolutely hate rounding up. You are completely out of control and that can be dangerous. I have found that the 260 appears to be very sensitive to rigging issues. I have put a lot of prebend in my mast using the intermediate shrouds. I also have it raked somewhat and have tensioned the uppers and lowers into the 500+ and 400+ range. The boat will still round up but only in really severe gusts. I feel much safer sailing in the company of other boats now.
I absolutely hate rounding up. You are completely out of control and that can be dangerous. I have found that the 260 appears to be very sensitive to rigging issues. I have put a lot of prebend in my mast using the intermediate shrouds. I also have it raked somewhat and have tensioned the uppers and lowers into the 500+ and 400+ range. The boat will still round up but only in really severe gusts. I feel much safer sailing in the company of other boats now.
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David Foster
Too much sail, traveler to high
Rounding up happens when too much sail is held too close to the centerline. This results in: 1. Weather helm - the wind acts on the sail area aft of the keel to turn the boat into the wind rather than drive it ahead. 2. Excess heeling. When you heel beyond 30 degrees, much of the rudders force is exerted _down_ (lifting the stern!) rather than sideways (to turn the boat.) In addition, when the rudder is turned too far, it stalls - the flow on the windward side detaches, further decreasing turning force, and slowing the boat - which leads to more heeling! Hauling in the traveler (or mainsheet if you don't have a traveler, or it is all the way leeward) to increase heel in strong winds will nearly always get you in a stalling, round-up scenario. Try to get your friends hooked on speed instead of burying the rail. A properly trimmed sail (reefed if necessary) will always drive the boat faster with less heel. David Lady Lillie
Rounding up happens when too much sail is held too close to the centerline. This results in: 1. Weather helm - the wind acts on the sail area aft of the keel to turn the boat into the wind rather than drive it ahead. 2. Excess heeling. When you heel beyond 30 degrees, much of the rudders force is exerted _down_ (lifting the stern!) rather than sideways (to turn the boat.) In addition, when the rudder is turned too far, it stalls - the flow on the windward side detaches, further decreasing turning force, and slowing the boat - which leads to more heeling! Hauling in the traveler (or mainsheet if you don't have a traveler, or it is all the way leeward) to increase heel in strong winds will nearly always get you in a stalling, round-up scenario. Try to get your friends hooked on speed instead of burying the rail. A properly trimmed sail (reefed if necessary) will always drive the boat faster with less heel. David Lady Lillie
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Brad
heeling
I have tried to explain that we can go faster with proper sail trim and the correct angle of heel. Unfortunatly they assosiate heeling with speed, not to mention they find it commical when everything in my boat crashes from one side to the other all day long. Thanks for the info everyone. Brad
I have tried to explain that we can go faster with proper sail trim and the correct angle of heel. Unfortunatly they assosiate heeling with speed, not to mention they find it commical when everything in my boat crashes from one side to the other all day long. Thanks for the info everyone. Brad
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Dick
Rudder down in position
You didn't say anything about checking the position of your rudder. My guess would be that it wasn't all the way forward. My 26 wants to turn up into the wind if is just a few inches back.
You didn't say anything about checking the position of your rudder. My guess would be that it wasn't all the way forward. My 26 wants to turn up into the wind if is just a few inches back.
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David Foster
Who are "They"?
Are you the Captain, or what? All kidding aside, I would at least try to explain the situation to them. That sheeting in the main to increase heel leads to this out of control situation called rounding up. It's hard on the sails and rigging, and not very clever. If they insist, and you want to let them have their way, then I suppose you will become our expert on rounding up! Do trim your standing rigging, though. There should never be any slack on the leeward stays. You can just tighten them under way, being sure to tighten the complementary stays on the windward side the same number of turns. Or check the archives for tuning procedures in general, or for your boat. Rounding up off of slack stays _will_ create shock loading on your rig, and may cause a catastrophic failure. The shock loads slamming through a tack a multiples (2 to 5 times) of the steady state loads of a stable rig on a steady point of sail. David Lady Lillie
Are you the Captain, or what? All kidding aside, I would at least try to explain the situation to them. That sheeting in the main to increase heel leads to this out of control situation called rounding up. It's hard on the sails and rigging, and not very clever. If they insist, and you want to let them have their way, then I suppose you will become our expert on rounding up! Do trim your standing rigging, though. There should never be any slack on the leeward stays. You can just tighten them under way, being sure to tighten the complementary stays on the windward side the same number of turns. Or check the archives for tuning procedures in general, or for your boat. Rounding up off of slack stays _will_ create shock loading on your rig, and may cause a catastrophic failure. The shock loads slamming through a tack a multiples (2 to 5 times) of the steady state loads of a stable rig on a steady point of sail. David Lady Lillie
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Mark
Check all of your rigging
If you go by the book it will sail fine! Lower shrouds are not there to put pre-bend in the mast. The reverse diagonals do this. Lower shrouds keep the mast staight and true. Continual rounding up even in light air means your rake needs adjusting.
If you go by the book it will sail fine! Lower shrouds are not there to put pre-bend in the mast. The reverse diagonals do this. Lower shrouds keep the mast staight and true. Continual rounding up even in light air means your rake needs adjusting.
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Ron Mehringer
Rig tension
Many sailors are reluctant to purchase a Loos tension guage. I think they are well worth the money. Your 260 costs tens of thousands, the guage is about $50. The first time you use it you'll probably discover that your shroud tension was no where close to being taught enough. Even if you don't tighten things up to the 20% for uppers and 10% for lowers rule, you're still likely to end up with a rig that is much tighter than what you currently have and the boat will sail much better (and safer). Ron Mehringer Hydro-Therapy
Many sailors are reluctant to purchase a Loos tension guage. I think they are well worth the money. Your 260 costs tens of thousands, the guage is about $50. The first time you use it you'll probably discover that your shroud tension was no where close to being taught enough. Even if you don't tighten things up to the 20% for uppers and 10% for lowers rule, you're still likely to end up with a rig that is much tighter than what you currently have and the boat will sail much better (and safer). Ron Mehringer Hydro-Therapy
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Mark
As a matter of interest.
All of you that wind up the shrouds to close on specification for the guage of wire how on earth do you get the forestay hooked up or have you marked the turnbuckle on the forestay and adjust up each time you step the mast?? I have the shrouds pretty dam tight on the 260 but to get the forestay to reach I have to pull very hard on the mainsheet to get the pin through. So hard in fact that I also attach the spinaker halyard just in case the headsail one snaps. Mind you the Lee shrouds do go a little slack in 20-25 knots breezes.
All of you that wind up the shrouds to close on specification for the guage of wire how on earth do you get the forestay hooked up or have you marked the turnbuckle on the forestay and adjust up each time you step the mast?? I have the shrouds pretty dam tight on the 260 but to get the forestay to reach I have to pull very hard on the mainsheet to get the pin through. So hard in fact that I also attach the spinaker halyard just in case the headsail one snaps. Mind you the Lee shrouds do go a little slack in 20-25 knots breezes.
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Dick
Why adjust forestay?
I leave it as is. It is a pain to deal with when you have roller reefing, anyway. I just loosen the side the stays the same number of turns until the forestay is loose enough to remove the pins. When I put the mast back up, I reverst the procedure.
I leave it as is. It is a pain to deal with when you have roller reefing, anyway. I just loosen the side the stays the same number of turns until the forestay is loose enough to remove the pins. When I put the mast back up, I reverst the procedure.
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Jeff Peltier
Forestay
I mark my forestay and loosen it when I drop the mast and tighten it back to the mark when it goes back up. I agree that it would be a challange to get the pin back in without doing so. A visegrip to hold the roller furling up seems to make the job fairly easy. Jeff Peltier
I mark my forestay and loosen it when I drop the mast and tighten it back to the mark when it goes back up. I agree that it would be a challange to get the pin back in without doing so. A visegrip to hold the roller furling up seems to make the job fairly easy. Jeff Peltier
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Mark
Yes but
I don't have a roller furler. It seems to me to make sence that without one you might mark the fore stay and wind up once connected. Crazy what are your thoughts?
I don't have a roller furler. It seems to me to make sence that without one you might mark the fore stay and wind up once connected. Crazy what are your thoughts?
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Jeff Peltier
Yes,
That makes it all the easier. Once you mark it you only have the tighten one vs 4. Jeff Peltier
That makes it all the easier. Once you mark it you only have the tighten one vs 4. Jeff Peltier
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Mark
Pre-bend Jeff
I have always used the amount of 2.5% of the P measurement to set the amount of pre-bend. I do in fact have more than this at the moment to depower the main but I would be interested to see what % you guys over there use.
I have always used the amount of 2.5% of the P measurement to set the amount of pre-bend. I do in fact have more than this at the moment to depower the main but I would be interested to see what % you guys over there use.
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Jeff Peltier
Re-Prebend
I've been setting it at about 6" which would be somewhat less that 2%. Some days this is about right, although some days when the wind is a little stronger and we're only racing with 2 of us on board, I would rather have a little more to help flatten the sail. Under those conditions, we'll put a reef in upwind and take it out right before the upwind mark to get more sail up going downwind. I've also tried the spinnaker with the main reefed under some of those conditions and it seemed to minimize the tendancy to round up in the puffs. Jeff Peltier
I've been setting it at about 6" which would be somewhat less that 2%. Some days this is about right, although some days when the wind is a little stronger and we're only racing with 2 of us on board, I would rather have a little more to help flatten the sail. Under those conditions, we'll put a reef in upwind and take it out right before the upwind mark to get more sail up going downwind. I've also tried the spinnaker with the main reefed under some of those conditions and it seemed to minimize the tendancy to round up in the puffs. Jeff Peltier
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Ron Mehringer
What's Pre-bend?
Maybe I'm asking the obvious, but is prebend the amount of aft rake in the mast prior to tensioning the rig? Is Mark's 2.5% rule appropriate for the 260 and 26? What's the final bend supposed to be on these boats? Ron Mehringer Hydro-Therapy
Maybe I'm asking the obvious, but is prebend the amount of aft rake in the mast prior to tensioning the rig? Is Mark's 2.5% rule appropriate for the 260 and 26? What's the final bend supposed to be on these boats? Ron Mehringer Hydro-Therapy
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