Rookie Question about Spinnaker Tack Line

[Sailfanatic]

I've never considered flying a spinnaker from a jib halyard. Do many people do this? I'm asking because I just had a conversation yesterday with the owner of a Gulfstar 42 who wants to fly a spinnaker but wasn't sure how best to add the spin halyard. It seems jibing would be a real challenge and using the snuffer would almost be mandatory for jibing with this setup.

You can jibe a cruising chute, filing aft the forestay pretty much h the same as one flying in front of the forestay. Yhe better practice is to jibe the chute before the main.

The truth is the riggers and manufacturers who are rigging masthead exit halyards and then labeling them 'spinnaker' are doing the customer a dis-service and confusing the public. It there is a second halyard that is rigged exactly the same as the first one which is labeled 'jib' then the second one should be labeled 'jib 2'. Again if you live in a world of cruising chutes the confusion does not matter much, but if you upgrade to a symmetric or add a sprit it suddenly matters a lot.

 

[Hunter216]

@Sailfanatic

You have mentioned several times about attaching a “flying” sail “behind” the forestay.

I admittedly am not an expert so just trying to understand this.

My reading, experience and advice from more experienced sailors has all been consistent in that the spin or asym attachment points should be “outside” of the “boat”. This is logical to me as having any portion of the “flying” sail getting hung up in anything is NOT good. The movement of the flying sail is not as “predictable” as the main or jib so the chance of a is higher.

Why would anyone rig a boat where the tack or head of the flying sail would be “behind” the forestay?

 

[Sailfanatic]

@Sailfanatic

You have mentioned several times about attaching a “flying” sail “behind” the forestay.

I admittedly am not an expert so just trying to understand this.

My reading, experience and advice from more experienced sailors has all been consistent in that the spin or asym attachment points should be “outside” of the “boat”. This is logical to me as having any portion of the “flying” sail getting hung up in anything is NOT good. The movement of the flying sail is not as “predictable” as the main or jib so the chance of a is higher.

Why would anyone rig a boat where the tack or head of the flying sail would be “behind” the forestay?

Here's a good thread with pictures on this subject:

Masthead spinnaker

Selden mast, roller furling masthead foresail .. .. And there are two spinnaker halyards one each side of the furling headsail. So whats the best way to arrange the masthead so far as the spinnaker halyards are concerned? At the moment with an asymetric the wear on the halyard is really bad if...

forums.ybw.com

The net of it: if you are using a "spinnaker" which REQUIRES jibing front of the mast, such as an symmetric or a asym on a sprit, then you should use a halyard which hangs if front of the forestay, such halyard best termed a "spinnaker" halyard, or you may find after a jibe has been performed, that the spinnaker will not come down (until you figure out that you need to un-jibe it...been there, done that). After jibing a spinnaker raised on a headsail halyard in front of the forestay, the halyard ends up crossed over the forestay and likely over the furler swivel, providing opportunity for the halyard shackle or spinnaker head or sleeve to hang up on something, preventing lowering.

If you are using a sail which CAN jibe aft the forestay, which is a cruising chute without a sprit, then you CAN use the halyard which exits the masthead after/under the forestay, which type of halyard really should be called a "headsail" halyard. Using a headsail halyard, the spinnaker should be jibed inside the forestay, and jibing the spinnaker inside the forestay will work best if the tack originates behind the forestay also, or uses a device like a Tacker which rotates around the forestay, so that the tack follows the head through the jibe.

I think many riggers and manufacturers nowadays install only "headsail" halyards, due to the declining popularity of symmetric spinnakers and the fact that a headsail halyard is adequate to handle an asym without a sprit, which you then jibe inside/aft the forestay.

So if a boat owner wants to go big with a power spinnaker investment, either with a symmetric or an asym with sprit, in addition to adding the obvious rigging hardware, the owner also needs to remember to add a spinnaker crane and either adapt an existing headsail halyard to tit or run a new halyard.

 

[DArcy]

Here's a good thread with pictures on this subject:

Masthead spinnaker

Selden mast, roller furling masthead foresail .. .. And there are two spinnaker halyards one each side of the furling headsail. So whats the best way to arrange the masthead so far as the spinnaker halyards are concerned? At the moment with an asymetric the wear on the halyard is really bad if...

forums.ybw.com

The net of it: if you are using a "spinnaker" which REQUIRES jibing front of the mast, such as an symmetric or a asym on a sprit, then you should use a halyard which hangs if front of the forestay, such halyard best termed a "spinnaker" halyard, or you may find after a jibe has been performed, that the spinnaker will not come down (until you figure out that you need to un-jibe it...been there, done that). After jibing a spinnaker raised on a headsail halyard in front of the forestay, the halyard ends up crossed over the forestay and likely over the furler swivel, providing opportunity for the halyard shackle or spinnaker head or sleeve to hang up on something, preventing lowering.

If you are using a sail which CAN jibe aft the forestay, which is a cruising chute without a sprit, then you CAN use the halyard which exits the masthead after/under the forestay, which type of halyard really should be called a "headsail" halyard. Using a headsail halyard, the spinnaker should be jibed inside the forestay, and jibing the spinnaker inside the forestay will work best if the tack originates behind the forestay also, or uses a device like a Tacker which rotates around the forestay, so that the tack follows the head through the jibe.

The thread you linked to is discussing how to get spin halyards out in front of the forestay. I don't see anything about using a jib halyard for a spinnaker. I'm sticking with my previous view on this which is any spinnaker needs to be flown in front of the forestay which means a halyard and tack point forward of the forestay. Using a jib halyard could cause chafe and difficulties dropping the sail as well as challenges jibing.

 

[Sailfanatic]

The thread you linked to is discussing how to get spin halyards out in front of the forestay. I don't see anything about using a jib halyard for a spinnaker. I'm sticking with my previous view on this which is any spinnaker needs to be flown in front of the forestay which means a halyard and tack point forward of the forestay. Using a jib halyard could cause chafe and difficulties dropping the sail as well as challenges jibing.

The whole point is most boats the last ten or twenty years are coming ONLY with halyards which exit the masthead under/aft the forestay, a halyard hanging on a crane is not a common feature. So what the OP of that thread, and many other owners discover, you may have two halyards, located side-by-side exiting the mast under/aft the forestay and the rigger or manufacturer has labeled one "jib' and the second "spinnaker" but they are identical and interchangeable, and neither one is suitable to use with a symmetrical spinnaker, or an asym on a sprit, unless like the OP of that thread, you drop/re-hoist the sail to accomplish a jibe..

So you can use the halyard labeled "spinnaker" but that halyard is equally as un-suitable for flying a symmetric spinnaker as the identical halyard labeled "jib". Fortunately such poorly labeled halyards are just fine for cruising chutes.

 

[Hunter216]

Here's a good thread with pictures on this subject:

Masthead spinnaker

Selden mast, roller furling masthead foresail .. .. And there are two spinnaker halyards one each side of the furling headsail. So whats the best way to arrange the masthead so far as the spinnaker halyards are concerned? At the moment with an asymetric the wear on the halyard is really bad if...

forums.ybw.com

The net of it: if you are using a "spinnaker" which REQUIRES jibing front of the mast, such as an symmetric or a asym on a sprit, then you should use a halyard which hangs if front of the forestay, such halyard best termed a "spinnaker" halyard, or you may find after a jibe has been performed, that the spinnaker will not come down (until you figure out that you need to un-jibe it...been there, done that). After jibing a spinnaker raised on a headsail halyard in front of the forestay, the halyard ends up crossed over the forestay and likely over the furler swivel, providing opportunity for the halyard shackle or spinnaker head or sleeve to hang up on something, preventing lowering.

If you are using a sail which CAN jibe aft the forestay, which is a cruising chute without a sprit, then you CAN use the halyard which exits the masthead after/under the forestay, which type of halyard really should be called a "headsail" halyard. Using a headsail halyard, the spinnaker should be jibed inside the forestay, and jibing the spinnaker inside the forestay will work best if the tack originates behind the forestay also, or uses a device like a Tacker which rotates around the forestay, so that the tack follows the head through the jibe.

I think many riggers and manufacturers nowadays install only "headsail" halyards, due to the declining popularity of symmetric spinnakers and the fact that a headsail halyard is adequate to handle an asym without a sprit, which you then jibe inside/aft the forestay.

So if a boat owner wants to go big with a power spinnaker investment, either with a symmetric or an asym with sprit, in addition to adding the obvious rigging hardware, the owner also needs to remember to add a spinnaker crane and either adapt an existing headsail halyard to tit or run a new halyard.

As @DArcy said the content of the link didn’t speak to rigging a flying sail inside the forestay???

Perhaps my depth of experience but I’ve not seen a boat rigged where the flying sail is rigged so that it jibes inside the forestay.

Personally I wouldn’t want to be on a boat that was rigged that way.

I can see how it could work IF everything went well or the sail was socked, thrown through the gap and then relaunched but that’s not very realistic IMHO. Just a high potential to have a big floppy sail wrapping the forestay, or snagging on something, partially filling, tearing or causing the boat to broach.

Perhaps I don’t understand what you are calling a “cruising chute”?
I still don’t get why anyone would rig the boat that way???

 

[Jumpstart]

put a cam cleat on the cabin side aft edge. Tack line should be able to then lead to cockpit coaming winch for release and easing under load. Loads can be up there so be careful how long you keep your A sail up. Our A sail is bigger than yours and Harken 150 with fairlead holds it well. Our small A3 (1000 sq ft) loads up quite a bit at 80 degrees apparent wind angle and 14 knots true wind. At 15-20 knots true wind, apparent wind angles go to about 100 degrees which is when we start to take off.

 

[Sailfanatic]

As @DArcy said the content of the link didn’t speak to rigging a flying sail inside the forestay???

Perhaps my depth of experience but I’ve not seen a boat rigged where the flying sail is rigged so that it jibes inside the forestay.

Personally I wouldn’t want to be on a boat that was rigged that way.

I can see how it could work IF everything went well or the sail was socked, thrown through the gap and then relaunched but that’s not very realistic IMHO. Just a high potential to have a big floppy sail wrapping the forestay, or snagging on something, partially filling, tearing or causing the boat to broach.

Perhaps I don’t understand what you are calling a “cruising chute”?
I still don’t get why anyone would rig the boat that way???

I'd refer you to the following :

https://neilprydesails.com/images/pdf/Neil%20Pryde-Sail%20Magazine-Cruising%20Spinnaker.pdf

which is a useful reference because the sailmaker's instructions are explicit regarding the use of the two different halyard types, and of the two different jibing procedures. Unfortunately most spinnaker handling instructions you find on the net assume readers understand what a "spinnaker" halyard is, and so dont make explicit an distinction regarding headsai/genoa/jib halyard use, which as we can see from this thread, is a bad assumption.

then gets to the related jibe procedure for this type of halyard, which involves jibing the chute in front of the forestay

then has a section on the alternative type of halyard, which is what is the commonly installed style on most non-racing boats, unless an owner or manufacturer has done a halyard upgrade, I have been referring to this as a headsail halyard:

Then to the jibing procedure appropriate to this type of halyard, which involves jibing the chute through the foretriangle, ie aft of the forestay:

 

[Hunter216]

To use the OP’s boat as an example,
the forestay appears to be attached to the mast just below the actual masthead.

To me the only “safe” way to rig a flying sail, cruising chute, asym would be to have a “spinnaker halyard” connected via a block that could move and NOT chafe to a point ABOVE the forestay attachment point. The tack of the sail should be connected to a point IN FRONT OF the forestay.

If it was me I would want a top down furler rigged to a retractable bowsprit and at the actual masthead or perhaps a masthead crane if extra clearance was required. The furler would allow me to do almost all of the sail handling from the cockpit.

I believe that there are boats rigged where the asym is managed INSIDE the “fortriangle” I guess for budget reasons but if you can afford the asym it would seem logical that you could afford a “real” spin halyard Just my 2cents