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Roller Furling and a Halyard Issue

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May 23, 2004
3,317
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
I am unable to take my Jib down at this time. It appears that the roller furling is having an issue at the masthead. I will post a picture with this thread.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get the Jib down? Is there a way to free this without sending someone aloft?

Any suggestions are appreciated. I have never experienced this before. My furler is a Profurl.
 

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Feb 26, 2004
21,500
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Maybe not so bad

BadO,

It looks like the tang with the O ring to which your halyard is connected is caught above the Darth Vader (what I call our halyard restrainer!). The tang should be going past "Darth" on the shorter side of his "helmet" and not around the "peak of the cap" as it appears in your photo. Somehow the "hat" got crooked.

There are two choices:

1. Unfurl the jib and yank like hell to get the tang's O ring below the wider part of Darth

2. Go up in a chair and find out why the top swivel and Darth got cockeyed

Since you're most likely gonna want to know #2 anyway, you may just bite the bullet and do it first thing.

One of the possible reasons this happens is that the halyard is not maintained as high as possible. I assume you'd already tried to pull the jib down when this photo was taken 'cuz it looks like it's not as hoisted as high as it could go as you normally would do. hat I do is check this periodically on our boat, since my jib halyard stretches over time and I have to tighten it up once every few months.

The only time I had trouble getting my top swivel down was NOT related to Darth. It came down fine until it hit a set screw that had backed out of the extrusion, thankfully within reach by standing on the pulpit. It does not appear that you have that problem, but if you do have that problem at one of the screws that high up, you're going to have to go up there anyway, too.

PS -- For those of you who do NOT have a ProFurl unit, I know you really, really want to help, but since the ProFurl units are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in construction than ANY OTHER furler on the market, it could well be that your ideas would not be much help.
 
May 23, 2004
3,317
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
Stu...When I tried to pull it down before winter it dropped a few inches and then hung up like that. I have never had this happen before and it is a bit fustrating. I tried a few times to get this straightened out but to no avail from down below.
 

COOL

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Feb 16, 2009
118
Islander 30 mkII Downtown Long Beach
I would try putting lots of slack in the halyard
and then counter rotating the foil by hand to
see if the shackle and 'O' ring will drop off
the halyard retainer.
Also unshackle the tack of the sail, then try over hoisting
and then dropping again.
 
May 23, 2004
3,317
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
I haven't tried unshackling my tack. That is an interesting thought. Right now it seems like my halyard is jammed in place and it will neither go up or down. My jib isn't rolled that well because it is slightly low on the foil and won't go back up. What a pain!

I have a feeling it is up the mast for someone!
 

DougM

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Jul 24, 2005
2,015
Beneteau 323 Manistee, MI
It seems a though unfurling the jib and reverse rolling the foil would clear the halyard enough to let the sail drop, jus allow some slack in the halyard.

It appears that the preventer on the furler does not sit close enough to the mast, which may be the root cause of the problem. On my boat the concave curve on the preventer actually hugs the mast so the shackle really cannot get past it.

Question: Why do you have the tang at all? If you just shackled the head of the sail to the halyard you would keep enough distance between the preventer and the shackle to possibly alleviate the problem of jamming it.
 
Jan 22, 2008
7,976
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
If I understand Stu correctly, I agree- the Darth Vader is mounted 180 degrees off and the halyard is on a one-way trip. And those tangs???

If you slack off the halyard, do you have a source of a high pressure water stream to blow the halyard away from the darth? I know it's way up there- my slip neighbor has a C30.
 
Feb 26, 2004
21,500
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
If I understand Stu correctly, I agree- the Darth Vader is mounted 180 degrees off and the halyard is on a one-way trip. And those tangs???
That's correct, although maybe not 180 degrees for the tang, it's more more like a bit past 90 degrees offset to port. Darth looks like it's out 180. The thin side of Darth should be aft, and the bottom of the tang, which is connected to the top swivel, should be facing aft, too. The top of the tang which is above Darth, Ron, holds an O ring where the halyard attaches.

I'll bet if you released the jib tack and turned the foil by hand you might be able to release it.

Here's a picture of ours. The sail has not been fully hoisted and the swivel is too darn far below Darth. After this picture was taken we unfurled the jib, released the tack line at the base of the jib, and hauled in the halyard to get the swivel higher up.

You still need to find out why Darth got twisted.
 

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Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
That's correct, although maybe not 180 degrees for the tang, it's more more like a bit past 90 degrees offset to port. Darth looks like it's out 180. The thin side of Darth should be aft, and the bottom of the tang, which is connected to the top swivel, should be facing aft, too. The top of the tang which is above Darth, Ron, holds an O ring where the halyard attaches.

I'll bet if you released the jib tack and turned the foil by hand you might be able to release it.

Here's a picture of ours. The sail has not been fully hoisted and the swivel is too darn far below Darth. After this picture was taken we unfurled the jib, released the tack line at the base of the jib, and hauled in the halyard to get the swivel higher up.

You still need to find out why Darth got twisted.
If we assume (dangerous I know) that the wrap stop was installed correctly, the only two things that will cause what we see in the photo is a failed top swivel bearing or a halyard wrap. If the sail installation is correct and the tang that is half of the wrap stop is above the Darth Vader half it should not be possible to get a wrap unless a bearing has failed or the hole in Darth was not drilled to the proper size. Darth is relatively soft plastic and is designed to mold itself to the wire stay. Once set properly, it is pretty hard to get them to rotate.

The fact that the jib started down and is now jammed is odd, Stu's thought that the top swivel might be hung up on a set screw is a possibility.

Why are we even talking about this? One look says "someone is going aloft" its a 15-20 minute job, not like climbing Everest. Why worry, just do it.

Randy
 
Dec 25, 2008
1,577
catalina 310 Elk River
Looks to me that the halyard knot is hung up on the disk. Unfurl the sail, release the tac and halyard and go sailing. The wind will loosen the luff and maybe release the hangup when you tack. If that does not work, then put tension back on the halyard and just as you come head to wind release the halyard again. Make sure there is nothing preventing the halyard from releasing fully by creating slack where it goes into the mast.
Otherwise your going to have a nice view around the marina from above, bring your camera. You probably have another reason to go up anyway. How about the lights, maybe add a wind transducer.
Cheers
 

donker

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Dec 2, 2009
32
Beneteau Moorings 38 San Francisco
I'm thinking that a deer rifle with scope might handle this from the deck. :)
 

BrianW

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Jan 7, 2005
843
Hunter 26 Guntersville Lake, (AL)
One of the 2 set screws on Darth may be loose and partly backed out, causing it to tilt and hang the halyard. As others have mentioned, maybe a bad bearing. A similar problem caused my headstay to bind and actually twist (unwrap) enough to damage it, so you may want to be very careful until you know its not rotating with the furler, especially if you manually rotate the foil. A trip up the mast may be needed just to confirm no damage to your headstay. BrianW
 
Jan 22, 2008
7,976
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
I looked at the photo a number of times, and in addition to noting the backwards darth, have to wonder why all that gear is so high up in the air as to tangle the darth in the first place? And if it's a proper arrangement for this application, I can only guess the tang is there to take the wear of the halyard against the darth? It looks like the halyard is attached to a shackle which attaches to a ring which attaches to the tang. I can't help but wonder why the rope halyard is not attached right to the drum and eliminate the other pieces? Bad O, is this the way the boat was when you got it? I looked at my slip-neighbor's C30, and he's not set up with that same furler.
 
Feb 26, 2004
21,500
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Ron, because that's how it's made. I tried to explain that, for those of you who don't have ProFurls. It's a rather unique design. The tang is a flat piece that has the halyard above, and connects to the top swivel below Darth.
 
Jan 22, 2008
7,976
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
No offense, Stu, but his whatever-year C30 might not be rigged the same as your whatever-year C34, and your piicture does not have the detail of BadO's. Even his pic is somewhat in the shade. That is why I asked him if his was the OEM arrangement. I have ProFurl and it is not rigged like BadO's, nor is my neighbor's C30. Sometime or other things have changed, and as we know, changes in wisdom merit changes being made. A line from the movie Australia is, "Just because that's the way things ARE, doesn't mean that's how they SHOULD BE".

With K*I*S*S (does not mean 'keep it stupid, simple') in mind, the fewer parts, the less chance for failure. Myself, I see a couple trouble spots in the present arrangement, snagged halyard not counted. Obvioulsy, if the darth were not out by 180 degrees as we believe it is, this thread would never have been started. On the other hand, if the ring and tangs COULD be deleted this would be a simpler arrangement. It appears his metal attachments have pinched the darth (and I hope has not damaged it). With a halyard-to-swivel arrangement, the line would not have snagged irretrievably on the darth in ANY position, so, again this thread would not have even been started.
 
May 23, 2004
3,317
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
Stu is right....I have a profurl and this wasn't the standard roller furler unit for a Catalina 30 of this vintage. The P.O. had installed this unit and I haven't changed a darn thing.

I have a feeling that this problem happened because my boat wasn't exactly head to wind when I tried to drop the jib. Originally it dropped a few inches and hung up.

I have tried twisting the foil and various other things but to no avail. I am going to probably end up sending someone aloft to get it looked at. For some reason I can't seem to find a day when there isn't any wind around here so I can get the problem solved. The other thing is that I don't want to move the boat because it is winterized and I don't feel like taking it out of winterization (I am being lazy). It isn't a huge deal, yet, as I am not using it.
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
How do I tell if a bearing is bad? How do I reset darth?
If you are lucky darth can be removed and reset with the flat towards the mast. Don't just try to twist it back. Think of darth having little teeth that have formed into the wire to lock it against rotation. If you just twist it back you will damage it. Unscrew the clamp screws, pry darth apart, reset to the correct angle then retorque the clamp screws.

Profurls use sealed and "permanently lubricated" carbon steel bearings in the swivels. There is some friction from the grease seal from the day the unit was installed. That is why they use the darth and tang system to prevent the NORMAL drag from the seal from causing halyard wraps. If the seal gets damaged and moisture gets into the swivel, the carbon steel bearings will do just what you would expect ... they rust and bind up ... the tang twisting darth on the stay if there are no other issues is a good indicator that a close look at seals and bearings might be needed.

Some models of newer Profurls don't use the tang and darth set up. They rely on the halyard being tight so the halyard itself works with darth to prevent wraps. All Profurls rely on the top swivel being very close to darth if you have a short hoist sail, you must add a pendant to get the swivel up to the right position.

When they are right Profulrs are my favourite choice for cruising boats, when they are wrong they are a big headache. Poor fit of the sail and loose halyards are the top causes of problems.

Cheers,

Randy
 
Feb 26, 2004
21,500
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Thanks, Randy.

Ron, Randy's post about the newer ProFurls is the first I've heard of them deleting the tang. Based on the design of "my" 2002 unit installed in 2003, the tang seems a good design because it passes the darth which is where I would expect any wear to be, so it's metal on plastic. Simply replacing that with a halyard would not be something I'd do because that's the wear point. Since I'm not in the market for a newer ProFurl, when and if I ever stumble onto documentation of what Randy mentions, maybe then I'll have a look-see.
 
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