Rivets: simple question

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John

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Jun 3, 2006
803
Catalina 36mkII Alameda CA
A simple question: I want to replace some rivets that hold a radar to the mast with screws. I've never drilled out rivets before. I suppose the method is to just use a bit slightly larger than the size of the rivet. Is that right? Anything more I need to know? (The tapping out for the machine screws I've done lots of times before.)

Thanks.
 

Tim R.

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May 27, 2004
3,626
Caliber 40 Long Range Cruiser Portland, Maine
Use a drill bit slightly larger than the hole in the rivet. The idea is to just take the head off the rivet so you can push the rest through and let it drop.

You will have to drill out the radar mount to accommodate the larger diameter machine screw. Use blue Locktite to ensure the screw does not back out and also provide a barrier to prevent corrosion between the two metals.
 

John

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Jun 3, 2006
803
Catalina 36mkII Alameda CA
That's what I figured, but I've screwed up too many times just going on that basis. I was planning on the loctite and the barrier. Thanks.
 
May 24, 2004
7,202
CC 30 South Florida
Before tapping screws into the mast consider the location and ascertain what may be on the inside at that point. You would not want to snag halyards or other lines which may be running inside.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
I go with the same size drill and they always pop off with a small punch as IF you slip and make the hole oversize you will have and issue

Most masts are a BIT thin to do well with screws
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Most masts are a BIT thin to do well with screws
I agree. I asked earlier "why," because I was wondering why it had to be removed, in the first place, and why you would want to use screws in tapped holes to replace. I don't think tapped holes in the aluminum mast will be strong enough for a radar mount. I installed mine with stainless steel pop rivets, using Tef-gel to insulate them from the aluminum. You could probably also use aluminum rivets, but I would check the specs on them, and use only brand-name aluminum rivets that have a spec sheet available (e.g., Cherry).
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I would use rivetnuts for a job such as this because you should have threads and long as the diameter of the bolt or screw.
 

JST123

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Jun 17, 2011
42
Hunter 33.5 Lake Ouachita
Rivnuts are good, but try and find the tool to install them properly, mainly used in aviation. Cherrymax rivets are a good choice. The smaller ones can be pulled with a pop rivet gun.
 
Nov 7, 2009
67
Hunter 22 bloomington,in
We all have our own ways to do things But I always grind the head off of pop rivets.A 4" grinder works great and just takes a few seconds. If you are carefull you won't even get into the paint on the bracket. It is fast and easy.
 
Nov 7, 2009
67
Hunter 22 bloomington,in
Sorry John I forgot to say that if the rivets are the type from a rivet gun then it is best to drill. With these you already have a center hole. Just use the same size drill and after drilling a few take a pair of plier and remove the head of the rivet from the drill bit.
 

John

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Jun 3, 2006
803
Catalina 36mkII Alameda CA
Here's the deal: A sailing buddy of mine says the radar on his mast is coming loose. It's riveted on, he says, and he wants to replace the rivets with machine screws. I offered to go up the mast and do it for him. I was figuring on using ss 12-24 screws, but from what people here are saying, rivets are better. (I've used ss machine screws to fasten other items to my mast - a track for a spinnaker pole, etc.)
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
John, The 12-24 fasteners will have 24 threads per inch. If the mast is 1/8 inches thick this will allow 3 threads to engage the bolt. This will be much less than the bolt strength or the shear strength of the aluminum mast. The rivnuts are designed to overcome this problem by inserting a plug with an adequate thread length in the mast.
I am inclined to wonder where you are able to find 12-24 fasteners in todays market because generally they are as bosolete as 5-40 fasteners. You may as well go to 1/4-20. Fine threads also to not wear as well in aluminum as course threads.
 
Aug 16, 2009
1,000
Hunter 1986 H31 California Yacht Marina, Chula Vista, CA
I'd never heard of rivnuts before. Do you feel this is the proper fastener to attach a boom kicker [vang] on both mast and boom?
 
Jul 24, 2006
628
Legnos, Starwind, Regal Mystic 30 cutter, 22 trailer sailor, bow rider NEW PORT RICHEY, FL
Ross, what about helicoil thread inserts, i realize not much thread engagement but i think they would be stronger than ss into aluminum?
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Not to be obtuse but thin walled metal structures are better served with sheet metal screws than machine screws. Clearly rivets and rivet nuts are a more elegant and possibly stronger solution but you can't beat locktight and sheet metal screws for ease of use while up the mast. The course and large depth of the thread (only one is engaged BTW) offer a pretty good purchase. As tattooed to my brain in collage a sheet metal screw will develop the shear strength of the base metal *pi*diameter of the hole* the thread pitch. If memory serves aluminum is something like 30Kpsi and if we consider a 1/4" hole that would be 2355 lb/screw to pull it out IF the thickness of the base metal is at least as thick as the thread pitch. I'd bet the mast is that thick. That is ultimate strength so take a 1/4 of that for a safety factor (588 lb/screw) and locktight to keep it from working out.
Note that that is the force to pull the screw out along the screw axis not to shear off the screw. That is just the shear strength of the screw material*(d/2)^2*pi*thread pitch. Assuming the same size aluminum screw, that would be 147 lb/screw.
I guess my observation is that given you have enough screws they are much easier to use, are reusable, don't cause the corrosion that SS, and are plenty strong for mast work. The ease of use being key when up the mast.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,722
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Not to be obtuse but thin walled metal structures are better served with sheet metal screws than machine screws. Clearly rivets and rivet nuts are a more elegant and possibly stronger solution but you can't beat locktight and sheet metal screws for ease of use while up the mast. The course and large depth of the thread (only one is engaged BTW) offer a pretty good purchase. As tattooed to my brain in collage a sheet metal screw will develop the shear strength of the base metal *pi*diameter of the hole* the thread pitch. If memory serves aluminum is something like 30Kpsi and if we consider a 1/4" hole that would be 2355 lb/screw to pull it out IF the thickness of the base metal is at least as thick as the thread pitch. I'd bet the mast is that thick. That is ultimate strength so take a 1/4 of that for a safety factor (588 lb/screw) and locktight to keep it from working out.
Note that that is the force to pull the screw out along the screw axis not to shear off the screw. That is just the shear strength of the screw material*(d/2)^2*pi*thread pitch. Assuming the same size aluminum screw, that would be 147 lb/screw.
I guess my observation is that given you have enough screws they are much easier to use, are reusable, don't cause the corrosion that SS, and are plenty strong for mast work. The ease of use being key when up the mast.
C'mon Bill not one mast manufacturer I know of recommends sheet metal screws nor professional rigger. Over the years I have spoken with US Spar, Isomat, Charleston and others.

This is what Brion Toss has to say on the subject just so we have a "professional" opinion.


"Sheet metal screws are for, well, sheet metal, and even thin-walled spreaders are a bit thicker than that. So even for extremely lightly-loaded items like flag halyards we never even think of using sheet metal screws; if the metal is too thin to take a screw happily and here the ideal is a wall thickness roughly the same as the screw diameter then we'll use stainless rivets or, preferably, Riv-nuts."


Brion Toss likes stainless rivets inserted with Tef-Gel, fine threaded machine screws, with the proper thickness, and Riv-nuts. Rivnuts work fine but I don't know any spar manufacturers, except for some carbon guys, that use them and we don't see mast toppling over on a regular basis.

That being said I have seen self tapping sheet metal screws torn right out of masts before. There was a guy over on Sailnet a few months ago who even posted some pics..

I just installed a Harken Halyard restrainer on a Cape Dory 36 two weeks ago. Harken recommended fine threaded 10-32 machine screws or SS rivets. Being that this was at the top of a spar with the furler foil in the way my rivet gun would not fit so machine screws it was and the mast section was as thick as the 10-32 machine screws used. You need to know what your doing with the tap but machine screws but they can work very, very well in a spar provided the thickness is there. My preference is SS rivets then fine threaded machine screws I have not found many situations where a Riv-Nut would have been required but they certainly exist...

I have seen masts put together with both SS rivets and fine threaded machine screws and both handle longevity just fine. Our 1979 Proctor spar was built using SS rivets. Not a single one is loose or failed.

I suspect Johns friend may have used aluminum rivets or simply installed them incorrectly. You need the right SS rivets, when are not cheap, and the right rivet gun.
 

jfmid

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Jan 31, 2010
152
Oday 27 LE Manahawkin, NJ
I take a scraper tool and shear off the rivet head with a good sharp blow. Separates the rivet and then I can punch out the rivet body. It (the rivet body) will drop into the mast so that might be a problem if it gets lodged on a sheave or such. My mast was on the hard and the little pieces could be retrieved. I did drill out the rivets before but it was messy and the drill bit walked once or twice scoring the hole. I dont know if shearing off the heads would work with Stainless steel (guessing it might not).

I used the
Astro Pneumatic 1426 1/4-Inch Heavy-Duty Hand Riveter


with 1/4" Aluminum rivets for my mast base. It really secures strongly IMHO. It was $28 on Amazon.

I used 3/8" aluminum rivets for a new steaming light mid mast. What I liked best is that the rivet "mushrooms" but doesn't leave a sharp edge internally (at least from what I could see) so there is no risk of the halyards shredding on the rivets.
I also riveted other things (micro block on the spreader for a pendant line) and it is now my go to tool for attaching to the aluminum parts of the mast.
This is the "BIG" riveter but there are smaller ones that one could use up a Bosun's chair or in tight places
Good luck
 

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