Return to MOB and the Life Sling

[Zzzzzz]

This topic has been covered everywhere, over and over.

Since I recently managed to buy a big enough boat, which sails on coastal waters but very cold(rarely above 55 degrees), after nearly 50 years of wishing, MOB is a big concern. Everyone I sail with is over 60 years old, and I am 65.

But I am sailing a small boat. I have asked about the use of the West Marine's LifeSling2© on a boat as small as my 19 foot micro-cruiser in other forums(not SailboatOwners.com). In those forums, nearly everyone owned a boat over 27 feet, and never having sailed a boat my size, or understanding the exceptional strength and stability of a WWP19, I was assured by nearly everyone that using a lifesling on my size boat was simply not possible. They assured me that the solution to my problem was simply not to fall out---like people who fall out do this on purpose, and I should remind everyone not to fall out on purpose.

I have contacted the manufacturer of the boat, International Marine, and they have assured me that a mast in good condition will not have any problem handling a 200 lb. man on the side of the boat and the exceptional beam, hard chine, and 400 lb. daggerboard ballast, will not capsize the boat. After all, the boat is designed to handle a 30 knot wind without going over(which exceeds 375 lb. against the sails).

Listening to people who have the life sling and have used it with their main halyard, and have found that it an emergency they cannot seem to get the main sail down in an orderly or timely manner, I am thinking that a dedicated 1/4 inch hole near the top of the 22 ft mast connect to a SS block with its own dedicated line ready to go with the block and tackle would be a worthwhile Murphy's Law circumstance.

I'm asking for thoughts to augment my thinking.

I am not interested in hearing from anyone who wants to tell me that my small boat can't do this, since I've heard enough of that already, and usually believe (after nearly 60 years of people telling me that kind of stuff about my ideas on things) that when people say that they really mean that THEY don't know how to do it.

So, for those of you with small micro-cruisers like mine, and who have put something like a lifesling on, what thoughts might you have???

 

[Zzzzzz]

looked at my Mast again...

The bolt that holds my side stays would easily hold a metal plate with a dedicated block connected with a shackle. This could be connected to regular 5000 lb test 3/8 halyard line and then to a 5-1 bloick and tackle. No winch would be necessary, and even the lightest crew member could just hang on the line(with knots in it at 12 inch intervals) pulling a 250 lb dead weight person on board.

What do you think?

 

[Dunlookin]

I Spent This Weekend...

...on my boat. I recently purchased a Yeti cooler and wanted to work on a system to raise the cooler from the dock, over the lifelines, and onto/into the cockpit. This was a math/geometry/pully problem that intrested me for two reasons:

1) I am tired of lifting a fifty pound cooler onto my boat by sheer muscle.
2) I felt addressing the cooler issue would also give me some sense about how to bring someone onboard that may have gone overboard.

I have always been a fan of using the boom. It can act much like the maneuvering systems that supply ships use...as well as the building crane in every city.

Most masts have a "topping lift" at the end of the boom. This provides extra support to balance the weight.

In this exercise I raised the boom as far as it would go with the topping lift. I found it was better to reverse (and remove) the pully system from the traveller. I swung the boom over the side of the boat and controlled it with one end of the main sheet traveller attached to to boom bail.

The pullys reduced the actual weight I need to lift and I simply pulled the boom over to the cockpit.

While there are a hundred fancy systems to acomplish anyhing imaginable, I prefer to use what I have handy, what I am comfortable with, and what I know is readidly available.

All of the things I need to hoist a crewman out of the water are just where I need them, will be in serviceable order, and I don't have to "learn" how to use them in the moment I need them most.

I tried it...it works...and I now know just how to do it.

 

[Zzzzzz]

...on my boat. I recently purchased a Yeti cooler and wanted to work on a system to raise the cooler from the dock, over the lifelines, and onto/into the cockpit. This was a math/geometry/pully problem that intrested me for two reasons:

1) I am tired of lifting a fifty pound cooler onto my boat by sheer muscle.
2) I felt addressing the cooler issue would also give me some sense about how to bring someone onboard that may have gone overboard.

.....

I have a topping lift on my boom too. I'm thinking it would be NOT strong enough to handle a person, and the block where its connected is only there with pop rivits. But its a great idea.

 

[Zzzzzz]

5-1 block and tackle

I found someone who used their own block and tackle in the configuration in the attached photo. This is basically the one that is required for a motorboat which doesn't have a mast and has limited height to bring the person onboard.

 

[Dunlookin]

Reference Previous Posts..

I use my topping lift to hoist my 250 pound *ss up the mast on the rare occasion I need to go aloft. I am not worried about its' ability to bear a man's weight.

The bail on my boom is through bolted and would proably defeat Atlas if he tried to break it.

Each of the lifting points has been tested for strength, durability, and purpose.

I have staked my life on each stress point.

 

[Zzzzzz]

What is wrong with this picture?

This was given as an example of why you can't use a LifeSling2 on a small sailboat in another forum, not SailboatOwners.com, and not one that deals specifically with small boats. The poster commented that you could see the boat leaning over and "about the capsize".

First of all the boat is not about to capsize.

Second, the life sling is not designed to be used as a swimming hole tire. In the actual use of the MOB technique, the person is pulled the side of the boat midway between the bow and stern. At this point, they are pull as far up out of the water as possible. Then and only then, they are connected to the line that is used to pull them up. However,this line is actually connected to a block and tackle 5-1 combination, and then that is pulled up.

The use in the picture has nothing to do with good practice of the use of the MOB using the life sling. IN OPEN WATER WITH WAVES, this could even be very dangerous.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

I have sailed the WP Potter 19. While they are 'seaworthy', they are also very tender. I would not want to bring 200 lbs over the side, regardless of the equipment used.

 

[Les]

The Life Sling was researched, designed and developed here in Seattle so my comments may be a tad biased so take that into account when reading this. As I see it you have two separate activities to account for: 1) retrieving the MOB back to the boat, and 2) getting the MOB back on the boat.

With the retrieving portion the Life Sling is outstanding. Just throw the flotation and then circle the MOB. The line and flotation will come to the MOB. I have been that person overboard (practicing) and it always came directly to me.

It is the second portion that you are concerned with. Getting the MOB BACK on board. When my racing crew and I were practicing we used the block and tackle as photographed by
Zarathru. We would hook it to the spinnaker sheet, hook it on the MOB and take the running part to a winch and winch me out.

In recent years I was concerned that I now sail with people my age (past retirement age) and they would not have the muscle strength to yank one of us back on board even with the block and tackle so I bought a boat with an open ended stern. I now take my spinnaker halyard, hook it to the MOB, pull them to the stern and by using the spinnaker halyard on a winch and using my WinchRite I could pull somebody on board.

I suspect your boat has lower sides to it so using any halyard would work--you do have winches? Or you could connect the hook and tackle to your boom and lead the running end of the tackle to a winch.

Here is a problem we came across when practicing in our waters here in Puget Sound (about the same temperature as your waters) is that the MOB is a lot heavier then we thought. The clothing when wet is heavy. Still I believe your halyards or a block and tackle would be sufficient to haul someone on board. I do think you will need a winch of some sort.

I think the second problem that of bringing someone back on board is the main problem. My racing crew and I once tried to get me on board dropping the main sail off the track, keeping the halyard on it and dumping it into the water to drag the MOB onto it and then raising the sail essentially rolling the MOB on board. We felt in heavy winds it could be difficult. But I have always kept that option in the back of my mind.

Best wishes on coming up with a solution--hope you share it with us.

 

[sesmith]

Unless you are sailing the WWP19 right now, and unless you have tried the technique on the boat, you are just shooting the breeze(and from memory yet). That's fun, but its no use for those of us who have to think outside the box to find solutions. Its another of the, "I did something like that, but I've never tried this, so I know it won't work", which is everywhere in sailing. Personally, I get so very tired of hearing those words over and over again, because I usually end up going out and proving them wrong, and then they still try to tell me that they were not wrong and that I didn't do it. i guess I violated their world concept too much.

Its just not helpful. I sail the WWP19 right now, and it not too tender to bring a person up the side of the boat(unless the 400 dagger board is up--- then it might be an issue, but I'm not sure). You sailed it sometime in the past but you never tried something like this.

In the first post it said: "I am not interested in hearing from anyone who wants to tell me that my small boat can't do this, since I've heard enough of that already..." I guess I should have put it in bigger letters, bold and in color.

To ask advice on this forum, which is a real friendly place, very unlike some of the other sailing forums out there, and then beat up on someone offering advice, is counter productive, at the very least.

From Dave's (the guy that answered you) bio:

"Owner bio
US Navy 1971-1979 AD Aircraft Mechanic VAQ 135

Dave has been sailing more than 40 years and is an experienced instructor. He has sailed everything from 8 foot cat boats to 90 foot yawls, including schooners, ketches, and cutters. Dave has sailed the Channel Islands of Southern California, SF Bay area, the Pacific Northwest, the Alaskan Inside Passage, the South Pacific, both coasts of Florida, the Caribbean, the Mediterranean, and Lake Superior. Recently had a chance to sail a twin hulled Hawaiian canoe off of Hilo."

Now, if this guy told me that my boat was on the tender side, I'd listen, and maybe ask him how he would suggest getting someone out of the water, as his insight might be very helpful, but I wouldn't start by insulting him.

Just an unsolicited observation of how this thread is going.

 

[Zzzzzz]

I don't really care if the dude is an Admiral in the Navy. He doesn't know cr@p about West Wight Potter 19's or he wouldn't make an incredibly stupid comment that that they are tender. They are not tender in the least.

If he wants to comment about a boat he's sailing right now, great. If he makes totally incorrect statements about boats he clearly knows nothing about, then I have a right to correct him. He is not GOD. if you choose to believe that correcting someone about a statement that people might believe which is total wrong to be an insult, then maybe there is some religious connection here that I am not aware of.

 

[Zzzzzz]

I suspect your boat has lower sides to it so using any halyard would work--you do have winches? Or you could connect the hook and tackle to your boom and lead the running end of the tackle to a winch.

I discovered that an experienced racing crew using the LifeSling2 found that they couldn't get their main sail down fast enough to use the main Halyard---according to the captain of the team who was in the water in a wetsuit freezing in 50 degree water!

West marine suggests using a 5-1 block and tackle for Motor boats which is simply four pulleys, two at the top and two and the bottom. With this, even a child could hang in the line, like they were ringing church bells and pull up a 250 lb weight, and certainly any adult.

My boat has a fractional rig and the forward and side stays are all connected at a point about 4 feet down from the top of the mast at about 18 feet, still 10 feet higher than the minimal that West Marine suggests. I've decided to connect a dedicated line and the block and tackle to that. This will not require a winch, a spinnaker line or any halyard that is already being used, and additionally I can connect the single block at the top to the strongest point for lifting up, on the boat. AND.... I won't have to be training anyone about how to bring the sails down to bring somebody in. All they will have to do is swing around, heave to, pull the person to the boat, and connect a line that is ready to go for this exact purpose.

I will of course try it out on land first with a total wet and person who is carrying a bucket of rocks, since as we all know, MOB always seem to pick up a bucket of rocks somewhere after falling in.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

When I board a Potter I must do so with care. The rapid movement of the boat to my added weight can cause me to loose my balance if I am not careful. That is the definition of tender.

I can understand the acceptance or rejection of forum opinions. What I don't understand is the denial of a boat's inherent characterisitcs.

 

[Zzzzzz]

When I board a Potter I must do so with care. The rapid movement of the boat to my added weight can cause me to loose my balance if I am not careful. That is the definition of tender.

I can understand the acceptance or rejection of forum opinions. What I don't understand is the denial of a boat's inherent characteristics.

Never noticed that. Do you have the board down when you are boarding? The inherent characteristics that you describe are not noticed by me. So they cannot be inherent, there has to be something else going on.

So either you aren't remembering correctly, you are actually thinking of another boat, you have the board up so that she moves side to side more easily, or have some circumstance that is not the same as what I am used to.

What I don't understand is your unwillingness to accept that your opinion for a boat that you don't own and don't sail regularly might actually be inaccurate. Instead of trying to explore that, you simply assume that you are right and everyone else is wrong. But in any case, that discussion in not germane to this thread, and is actually destructive, which is about thinking out of the box in ways to use the life sling with a WWP19. It does allow you to show how much you think you know, at the expense of other people who don't know as much as you, but it doesn't help the discussion about how to use the lifesling on a small boat.

What would be more useful would be for you to take your vast knowledge and think out of the box for a solution to the issues that you see. Are you able to do that?

 

[SeaTR]

'nuff said with the barking already. Move on and start trading ideas / solutions...please.
10Q,

 

[isaksp00]

I would think that, since your idea would be for use in an emergency, that it is better than no way to get the person aboard. Maybe attach a test rig to the stay attach point, and (unless you already have a LifeSling) use a test harness like a life jacket to see what it feels like to haul a body up the side - does it heel dangerously or not? If not, particularly if the hauler can start out on the opposite side, you're better off than letting someone drown. Unless maybe there is some other, better approach.