Repowering with and electric engine?
- Thread starter Captain Rahn
- Start date
Electric motor technology is mature and robust. The energy storage technologies are improving but are the limiting factor. Think of the batteries providing energy to the motor as a "garden hose" while the refill rate is limited, like using a "straw".
Energy storage technologies (i.e. batteries) are beginning to improve due to the demand for hybrid electric cars. Lead acid batteries are cost effective but heavy. Lithium iron batteries are the safest of the lithium technologies - light weight, deep discharging, fast recharging, but expensive.
For the past three seasons, my Capri 22 has been powered by a Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 electric outboard. The past two seasons have been on a mooring with only a 100 watt solar panel to recharge the 24 vdc, 210 amp-hour battery bank consisting of four GC2 lead acid batteries weighing 265 lbs.
Since we are day sailors going out once or twice a week, the 100 watt solar panel keeps the batteries fully charged for our trips. At 3 knots the batteries will last for 10 hours. At 5 knots, the batteries will last for 2 hours.
We use the electric motor as an auxiliary to maneuver in the mooring fields and for docking. We also use the motor to get to the start line on time in different locations in Boston Harbor.
Electric motor technology works very well for my needs.
Energy storage technologies (i.e. batteries) are beginning to improve due to the demand for hybrid electric cars. Lead acid batteries are cost effective but heavy. Lithium iron batteries are the safest of the lithium technologies - light weight, deep discharging, fast recharging, but expensive.
For the past three seasons, my Capri 22 has been powered by a Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 electric outboard. The past two seasons have been on a mooring with only a 100 watt solar panel to recharge the 24 vdc, 210 amp-hour battery bank consisting of four GC2 lead acid batteries weighing 265 lbs.
Since we are day sailors going out once or twice a week, the 100 watt solar panel keeps the batteries fully charged for our trips. At 3 knots the batteries will last for 10 hours. At 5 knots, the batteries will last for 2 hours.
We use the electric motor as an auxiliary to maneuver in the mooring fields and for docking. We also use the motor to get to the start line on time in different locations in Boston Harbor.
Electric motor technology works very well for my needs.
Electric is well suited to your use. If I were in the same position I would do something similar.
It is for the cruiser that it makes a lot less sense. Between range, being forced to use marinas to recharge if sailing the next day, light summer airs that require a lot of motoring and narrow passes with strong tidal currents it isn't a practical solution in this area, unless daysailing.
Off topic here, Sorry....
but i have to comment.
Greg, your sentence is perfect! this is EXACTLY our style of boating also.... its why we switched from power to sail.
when we get tired of the scenery where we are, we can move across the bay or down around the point to another anchorage for a change of scenery.... in relation to the change of scenery and what we may be seeing out our "front door", a 1/4 mile move is usually as good as 10 miles....
some sailors have to keep moving just to watch the log rack up the miles, but we value time on the hook and all it implies and has to offer, no matter if we are visiting with the neighbors or in some solitary location where we have all the time in the world to ourselves....
but even as much fun as the time on the hook is, we also enjoy, and have fun sailing the distance to get to our intended anchorage, where ever it may be...
Besides cost there is also the issue with having enough batteries aboard and where to put them. Most of these systems are 36v & 48v
http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/quote-request.shtml?camefrom=2
I guess my only concern with electric is what do you do in an emergency? I get it that electric does not 'float your boat" for all users but does for some. But those few that can use it are taking the chance that they will never have a problem and need to get somewhere quite a ways off in short order due to some sort of medical or other emergency. Its good to know that Mr. Yanmar has got my back should I ever need him.
I think for cruising, the only thing that would make sense to me about electric propulsion would be to have a big fuel cell to provide electricity with no noise and very efficient fuel consumption.. You'd still have to carry a gaseous fuel like hydrogen, or propane or butane most likely, but then it would make sense.... except for the outrageously high current cost of a fuel cell.. http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/#!h-series-stacks/c52t
Or a micro turbine generator from Bladen Jets, 1/4 the weight of a piston generator, no coolant, no oil changes, and it will burn biofuel.
For us, electric power could make sense. We already have an 8kw generator, so we'd not have to run off batteries. The gene burns about a quarter of what the Perkins uses, so that's a real plus. However, at the 75-90 hp needed, you are talking about a 3 phase motor, operating on A/C; a thousand pound monster, though way more compact than a diesel. I've not done the actual conversion between changing monophase to 3 phase, so I'm not sure 8 kw is enough.
The complete installation would run right around $15k, which is considerably more than a diesel. I doubt we'll go electric, but were I a millionaire?
The complete installation would run right around $15k, which is considerably more than a diesel. I doubt we'll go electric, but were I a millionaire?
Keep it in the cockpit?
From the site; "An external housing unit that is comparable in size to a domestic fridge freezer including a significant liquid fuel tank"
Greg
Might work in a cabin. No price????
I agree with alot that was said here concerning long distance cruising,etc but I must say that if you day sail mostly and don't need to run your engine/motor for more than a couple of hours at most then electric is a very nice option. Having converted my Catalina 27 to an electric 5 hp motor and a 100ah AGM battery bank, I was quite happy with my setup. No fuel, no oil, no water cooling and no winterizing. Total cost was around $2600.00 and I sold my A4 for $500.00 so for about $ 2100.00 for the install. Of course I did all of the work except for the yard charging me $75 for lifting the A4 with their hoist.
Hunter
I would look at the specs that Hunter did with the Hunter 36 with a electric motor and optional Gen and solar panels on the arch.
I saw it at the Miami boat show 2 years ago and it was very impressive and saw it motoring around the harbor at a pretty good speed.
Nick
I would look at the specs that Hunter did with the Hunter 36 with a electric motor and optional Gen and solar panels on the arch.
I saw it at the Miami boat show 2 years ago and it was very impressive and saw it motoring around the harbor at a pretty good speed.
Nick
I think some of the stuff we're going to see coming out over the next few years is going to change the way we think.
Check this fuel cell generator out. It's far cheaper than a DC generator. It's not as cheap to run but things like this are the future.
http://www.efoy-comfort.com/installation-your-boat
Check this fuel cell generator out. It's far cheaper than a DC generator. It's not as cheap to run but things like this are the future.
http://www.efoy-comfort.com/installation-your-boat
Sorry Bill, I manipulated your quote to make this point.
Talk about losing all your electronics due to a lightening strike...
That is the one thing I have thought about as a huge downfall in going to electric, you've smoked everything.
The marine store I work at has had a few ask about the Efoy. It is an interesting product. But it is hardly going to generate enough power for electric propulsion. 210 AH in 24 hours @ 12 volts won't do must for a 36 or 48 volt bank. And it does cost almost $6,000. May make sense for a cruiser as an option to solar or wind gen for house bank charging though.
Just to add a little historical perspective:
• Over a century ago boats were "sailed or rowed".
• Then electric motors were used in the late 1800s (very popular in the 1880s).
• In the 1920s internal combustion engine technology became reliable enough to overcome the limitations of battery technology for smaller boats.
It is not that one cannot cope with light winds, tidal and river currents, storms, etc. using sail or electric motor technologies, but it will take a different set of skills and limitations than what internal combustion engines (with dense energy sources) provide.
We all need to make our own choices to match our needs. The Purdys have sailed around the world without an engine. They accepted the limitations and the advantages.
People who have converted larger cruising sailboats have been very happy.
I see so many sailboats under engine power when the wind is "pleasant".
• Over a century ago boats were "sailed or rowed".
• Then electric motors were used in the late 1800s (very popular in the 1880s).
• In the 1920s internal combustion engine technology became reliable enough to overcome the limitations of battery technology for smaller boats.
It is not that one cannot cope with light winds, tidal and river currents, storms, etc. using sail or electric motor technologies, but it will take a different set of skills and limitations than what internal combustion engines (with dense energy sources) provide.
We all need to make our own choices to match our needs. The Purdys have sailed around the world without an engine. They accepted the limitations and the advantages.
People who have converted larger cruising sailboats have been very happy.
I see so many sailboats under engine power when the wind is "pleasant".
I have now quoted a couple of these and after doing the research found it to be a very expensive way of generating power...
The biggest problem, other than expense, is that even the EFOY 2200 only pumps out 7.5A of charge current or roughly 90W Wind and solar can easily exceed this, and for a lot less than half the installed price.
The fuel cells also need to be purchased directly from EFOY, and are pretty pricey... Over the long haul at the cost of the unit, the fuel cells and how much current we use on boats it's a tough sell until they can get these up to 20-30A output +........
The fuel cost for these units is quite steep. Roughly $20.00 per gallon plus shipping. It runs about $5.00 per kilowatt-hour or roughly $5.00 for every 80 amp-hours of charging. A single 140W solar panel will produce 40 +/- Ah's /day for no additional cost. Oh and when I say plus shipping, I mean PLUS.
My closest EFOY dealer is in MA and when I priced it out last time for a customer who wanted the straight dope on them I found that shipping an M-10 fuel-cell, which is 2.6 GAL, it cost nearly $100.00 to get from MA to ME due to the fact that it had to go FedEX and was classified as Haz Mat shipping. So 2.6 GAL / $159.00 = $61.15 PER GALLON... That jumps the cost to well over $15.00 for every 80Ah of charging.
Also one must keep in mind that these units need a full overhaul at a cost of about $3000.00 every 4-5k hours of use. Seeing as it is a low output device one would expect to be able to run it 24/7. 24/7 use is just 166 days of 24 hour use before you hit 4k hours. Efoy also says you MUST use their highly purified fuel.... They also don't recommend a "re-build" and suggest just buying a new one every 4k - 5k hours...
*So 5k hours / 6k purchase is $1.20 per hour of use. (if 4k hours we are at $1.50 per hour)
*Now we add the fuel at about $1.50 per hour of use (with shipping).
*We are now at $2.70 for every hour of charging
*We are now at approx $64.80 per day to charge your batteries.
I can run my diesel for approx 35 minutes, replace 80Ah, and burn less than $1.50 in doing so.... To replace 80Ah with the Efoy will cost you approx $15.00 just in fuel and we've not added in the unit cost or hours costing.......
While the technology looks promising solar & wind are still a much better value until these things start pumping out 25-30A and can run on non-proprietary fuel that costs $100.00 to ship two states......
I just did a quick search on current pricing: Efoy 2200 $9590.00
My numbers may be off a bit and could be low, from the last time I quoted one....
I think the lithium Ion batteries (as used by tesla etc) change the game. Get rid of the old lead acid and i think the power to weight ratio is much better. Also, fast charging is an option. Take a look at the Sail Drive from Torquedo, it's pretty impressive. I'm thinking of changing my diesel out