Anyone considering or already gone electric? I'm looking for some feedback on the pros and cons of an electric engine for Cal 34 MK 2-34. The main issues I believe are amp hours and recharge time.
Repowering with and electric engine?
- Thread starter Captain Rahn
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Range also a big factor. How far do you want to motor. My current boat has a 1400nm range.
Ok for day sailors but anything more than that is no good.
You will also devalue your boat. You have a great boat for cruising but the electric motor will severely limit it.
Ok for day sailors but anything more than that is no good.
You will also devalue your boat. You have a great boat for cruising but the electric motor will severely limit it.
electric
Well as a example I was going to give up on my gas dinghy motor and get
a electric motor and decided not to because how long will it take to charge and how or what would I charge it with.
We anchor out a lot and not at a marina that much and even thought I do have 2 big 190 watt solar panels and a diesel Gen I was afraid I would have to run my
Gen non stop charging that electric motor.
I really did think about it long and hard thinking less problems as a gas outboard
gives me but recharging would for me be a bad idea but hey if you day sail or are able to plug in at a dock than go for it.
Nick
Well as a example I was going to give up on my gas dinghy motor and get
a electric motor and decided not to because how long will it take to charge and how or what would I charge it with.
We anchor out a lot and not at a marina that much and even thought I do have 2 big 190 watt solar panels and a diesel Gen I was afraid I would have to run my
Gen non stop charging that electric motor.
I really did think about it long and hard thinking less problems as a gas outboard
gives me but recharging would for me be a bad idea but hey if you day sail or are able to plug in at a dock than go for it.
Nick
I have a Minn Kota 55lb thrust electric outboard on an 8' inflatable. I love not having to deal with another fuel, not requiring tune-ups, the lack of noise, light weight of the outboard and the easy of storing it in any locker - inside or outside the cabin. I use a 76 AH Agm battery in the dinghy. Charging hasn't been an issue either with a portable charger at the dock or connecting it to my house bank on board. I am installing a solar panel soon as in the picture below which will remove the need for any other charging method. My solar panel bracket is different than the picture - an inverted "U" in stainless with the panel attached with bbq brackets. This slips into mounts inside the transom. This will allow me to angle the panel and when removed from the dinghy it will fold like a tea table. The solar controller is installed inside the lid of the battery box. I haven't run longer than 4 hours in the past and still had reserve left. With the solar panel longer runs will not be a problem.
Total cost of the outboard, battery, solar panel, controller, and stainless panel mounts was a bit less than a Honda 2 hp outboard. The outboard I am using is the salt water version (Riptide) but if I were to do this again I would buy the standard, less expensive outboard. It is only in the water when in use and as far as I can tell the only major difference is the zinc and a white paint scheme.
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To the original question re the Cal 34. If you are at the dock each night after a days outing then it will work. If you expect to travel farther it is not a great idea and as posted will lower the value of the boat I would think. Both range and recharging are the insurmountable issues.
I have an electric motor scooter. When driving I am in a permanent mental foment as to whether I am going to have enough stored energy to make it back home. Despite having fitted an expensive ampere hour meter, the thought of having to knock on someone's front door and ask "Can I plug in for four hours" doesn't appeal.
Your anxiety state would most likely be worse as re-charge points are only in certain locations and these might result in determining your routes.
Your anxiety state would most likely be worse as re-charge points are only in certain locations and these might result in determining your routes.
Looked at electric a few years ago when re-powering my 33. I even inspected an installation on a similar boat. The installation was really clean. The installer was selling the boat and had sold another electric sailboat. I had trouble finding a sailor that used an electric boat. All I could find were people who were selling the engine or installers. Finally purchased a small diesel engine and am very happy with it. Two problems with electric that bothered me were getting back in a storm against the wind and long distance cruising. Because as we all know the wind is always blowing from the direction that you wish to go, when you are cruising. Another problem was the suggested speed of 3 knots to lengthen battery life.
google nigel calder on the web and understand his work on the subject.....his boat, his testing is undeniable and the results are well documented. ProBoats magazine/website may have some of his work available, too.
it is just not ready for prime time, and it may never be appropriate until some major leaps in technology are made.
it is just not ready for prime time, and it may never be appropriate until some major leaps in technology are made.
Start by checking this site out. There's some good links to vendors & other forums with some real world experience to help you. You're right about an electric conversion being a clean installation. I've pretty much made up my mind I'm going this route in lieu of repowering with diesel just because it is clean. Cost wise in the end, it'll end up being about the same as a diesel repower.
Like anything else in life, there's pros & cons to everything.
These are after all sail boats...
http://www.electricseas.org/
Like anything else in life, there's pros & cons to everything.
These are after all sail boats...
http://www.electricseas.org/
Electric is for toys and people on lakes who just need to push out of the marina.
If you sail out of Stockton and need to buck the delta tidal currents and want to be able to boat whenever you feel like it electric is no substitute for an engine. Anywhere else in the delta or bay is the same.
Once before I wrote "1 pound of diesel burned at 30% efficiency will yield 2.2 kilowatt hours. To store that much energy would take 100 pounds of batteries".
If you sail out of Stockton and need to buck the delta tidal currents and want to be able to boat whenever you feel like it electric is no substitute for an engine. Anywhere else in the delta or bay is the same.
Once before I wrote "1 pound of diesel burned at 30% efficiency will yield 2.2 kilowatt hours. To store that much energy would take 100 pounds of batteries".
The new Gunboat G4 cat will have electric ring-drive 2 6kw motors that are capable of regenerating electricity. They use LIon batts and mount about 1kw of photovoltaics on the boat. Gunboat will also offer a generator option to keep the batteries topped off. It will be a foiler.
Some of the new hydroelectric generators coming on the market are a big improvement over photovoltaics, the power generation is immense, and you don't have to deal with panels.
Some of the new hydroelectric generators coming on the market are a big improvement over photovoltaics, the power generation is immense, and you don't have to deal with panels.
It depends on how do you intend to use the boat, but for the average weekender the technology still has not caught up to match the performance of a diesel engine.
You really don't want to know what my diesel generator install cost.:cry:
drag? Negligible. From the seller: "The serious cruiser can now take advantage of immense amounts of free power when cruising or racing, without measurable speed loss, thanks to Cristec's R&D and ocean testing efforts.
The round-the-world racers use hydro generators.
I guess Jill and I sail from a different point of view. We don't race are are not, and never planned, to sail around the world.
From 04 to 09 we lived and cruised aboard full time. We have a lot of the goodies, HAM, SSB, VHF, chart plotter, computers (3), portable TV/DVD player, small projector TV for 40 inch viewing in the cockpit, and reefer, etcccc...... We have 165 Watts of solar and did just fine. Could we have had more, sure. But it all worked very well. We spent most of the time at anchor, not sailing, so a drag device of any type would not have done us all that good. We like to sail, but it's the anchor time we sail for.
And as for the info from the seller..... ANY drag device will reduce your speed! A spinning prop has drag to it, unless it's pushing the boat.
Greg
You could always look at a Hybrid. Electric to just get out of the harbor and diesel for longer trips. Doesn't look cheap though.
http://www.electricyacht.com/products/our-weekender-hybrid-systems/
http://www.electricyacht.com/products/our-weekender-hybrid-systems/
Here are some guys that have actually BTDT: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/electricboats/conversations/messages
There are so many options for recharging the battery bank when you go electric.
There are claims for regen when sailing but the real world data is kind of grim unless you're sailing across an ocean & have a long water line.
Many that have gone electric do have slips which gives them the ability to plug into shore power. Some real cruisers are out there living the life with electric and have not used any fossil fuel for a couple of years. Their battery banks are recharged between a combination of wind, solar & regen.
Range when motoring is an issue. A fully charged 200 AH AGM battery bank will give you about 4 hours @ 4 knots. If you need to have the pedal to the floor, forget it, electric's not for you.
Several coastal cruisers have data using Honda 2000 watt generators to power the rigs over a long distance but only get 3 knots without dipping into their battery bank.
When "motorsailing" that's where electric really shines from what I've read. Very little power consumption to give you that boost of speed without the noise & fumes of a diesel engine.
I'm not advocating for electric, to each their own. Just don't make the mistake of listening to the naysayers out there. Do your own research on the subject & make a decision based upon what will work for you.
There are claims for regen when sailing but the real world data is kind of grim unless you're sailing across an ocean & have a long water line.
Many that have gone electric do have slips which gives them the ability to plug into shore power. Some real cruisers are out there living the life with electric and have not used any fossil fuel for a couple of years. Their battery banks are recharged between a combination of wind, solar & regen.
Range when motoring is an issue. A fully charged 200 AH AGM battery bank will give you about 4 hours @ 4 knots. If you need to have the pedal to the floor, forget it, electric's not for you.
Several coastal cruisers have data using Honda 2000 watt generators to power the rigs over a long distance but only get 3 knots without dipping into their battery bank.
When "motorsailing" that's where electric really shines from what I've read. Very little power consumption to give you that boost of speed without the noise & fumes of a diesel engine.
I'm not advocating for electric, to each their own. Just don't make the mistake of listening to the naysayers out there. Do your own research on the subject & make a decision based upon what will work for you.
Diesel Electric
For marine propulsion diesel electric is the way to go. For the big ships such as Royal Caribbean's Oasis of the Seas they have diesel electric with the motors in an AziPod with no rudders that gives them 25% less fuel use for the same speed. Plus the AziPods can be rotated so they can turn on a dime with the bow thruster.
For us sailboaters the idea should be no different if we have an electric motor attached to the shaft (should be much simpler to align) and then a diesel generator to re-charge batteries or run to drive the electric motor when we are motoring for extended periods of time. That Electric Yacht system posted above seems to that type. I don't see a real reason why a diesel generator installed on my Catalina 310 in place of the engine could not be capable of generating enough power to drive a electric motor for extended periods of time like my traditional engine does.
From experience as a Submarine Sonar Technician I can state that 90%+ of the boats we encountered in the water had diesel electric drive - there has got to be something to it.
For marine propulsion diesel electric is the way to go. For the big ships such as Royal Caribbean's Oasis of the Seas they have diesel electric with the motors in an AziPod with no rudders that gives them 25% less fuel use for the same speed. Plus the AziPods can be rotated so they can turn on a dime with the bow thruster.
For us sailboaters the idea should be no different if we have an electric motor attached to the shaft (should be much simpler to align) and then a diesel generator to re-charge batteries or run to drive the electric motor when we are motoring for extended periods of time. That Electric Yacht system posted above seems to that type. I don't see a real reason why a diesel generator installed on my Catalina 310 in place of the engine could not be capable of generating enough power to drive a electric motor for extended periods of time like my traditional engine does.
From experience as a Submarine Sonar Technician I can state that 90%+ of the boats we encountered in the water had diesel electric drive - there has got to be something to it.
Basically about 700 lbs of batteries per gallon of diesel. My tank is small - only 12 gallons - but I can motor for 40 to 50 hours between refills. In this area - B.C. - a typical 2 week summer cruise is impossible with electric drive unless you have a generator which nobody really wants to hear in a pristine anchorage. Marina hopping in Desolation Sound doesn't work because there are few marinas, one of the area's advantages. Same with Greg's cruising in the Sea of Cortez. Most cruising any distance have enough issues generating enough power for refrigeration, electronics, and lights much less adding a 48 volt bank for propulsion. As Greg said it isn't much help at anchor anyway.
Regen is not very effective. A spinning prop has less drag than a locked prop - until there is a load on it. This can work on a powerful boat - Dashew used it on one of his boats - 62' Intermezzo I think - but never used it again, and he is not one to pass up a good idea. On a smaller boat the speed loss is too large a percentage of boat speed if much charging current is needed. Same with the Hydro Gens the round the world racers use. They are a lot less effective on a 30' boat as well as being as expensive as a small diesel. A diesel gen with electric is also more expensive than a re-power with diesel by itself. To have any range this way I bet the diesel will be running as many or more hours than diesel propulsion by itself. Honda 2000's add another fuel that can be more dangerous than the diesel it is replacing.
The small range from a 200 AH battery bank is true - but remember this is at 48 volts so you need 4 batteries to make up tyhe bank. LiFePO4 - sure if money is no object, but how much are you willing to spend to get rid of an efficient diesel. And with any other type of battery - Agm, flooded, or gel - battery replacement time will come before you expect at a large expense.
Comparing a 30' or so sailboat with a cruise ship is too much of a joke to be taken seriously.
A small electric drive system with minimal range makes sense only if you are at a dock with shorepower after the day's sail or an overnight trip. For cruising farther afield it is just not practical. Not yet, and it certainly is not less expensive than a diesel, especially after battery replacement in a few years is added in.