Repowering a San Juan 28 with outboard?

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Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Ross-

I don't think Maine Sail's point is that you can get a perfect boat, but that getting a boat in decent condition is going to be far, far less costly than buying the same boat in need of repair and repairing it to the same condition. For instance, you could buy an Catalina 30 in good shape for $17,000 or so, or you could buy one that needed some work for $7,000. However, it would probably cost you more than the $10,000 differential to bring the latter up to the shape the former was in, if you figure time, labor, materials, etc.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Dog , If we have to count sweat equity into the cost of a boat repair or refit then they are all too expensive.
I was really addressing the question to Mainesail for his response to Jim's statement that a new boat had to be perfect. I had suggested that with a sound hull and a new engine and rigging and all other systems in good repair did you not have a new boat?
I rebuilt my boat just to have a boat made as I wanted on the inside and I bought the hull shape that I wanted. I could have purchased a very good boat for the price I put into this one but I believe that I have functionally a new boat it just happens to sit in a forty year old hull.
 

Jim

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May 21, 2007
775
Catalina 36 MK II NJ
Ross, I never said a new boat is perfect. Free of know defects is more like itI

Never meet a dog that didn't have flee or a boat with problems.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Not at all!

How about the rudder post, the steering system, the chainplates, what is the wood work like, is there water in the core (I think so), how are the keel botls, what do the sail look like, do the windows leak....

I new boat, should, and I say should be, perfect!
Jim, Your words!
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Ross—

You chose to re-build your boat to have it just the way you wanted on the inside. That was your choice. :)

The OP is talking about buying a boat that may not be usable as a sailboat without some serious, and possibly quite expensive, work. I've done quite a bit of work on my boat, as well as many others... but the work was optional, and not necessary for the boat to be usable. There's a difference between a boat needing to have work done to make it basically functional, and optional work to make the boat exactly the way the owner wants it to be.

Dog , If we have to count sweat equity into the cost of a boat repair or refit then they are all too expensive.
I was really addressing the question to Mainesail for his response to Jim's statement that a new boat had to be perfect. I had suggested that with a sound hull and a new engine and rigging and all other systems in good repair did you not have a new boat?
I rebuilt my boat just to have a boat made as I wanted on the inside and I bought the hull shape that I wanted. I could have purchased a very good boat for the price I put into this one but I believe that I have functionally a new boat it just happens to sit in a forty year old hull.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Mainesail, Have you ever seen a perfect new boat? That you could afford?
No but who ever said anything about a "new" boat? I have purchased new boats before and NONE of them was perfect. I don't believe there is such a thing. I'm talking about a well cared for and updated example of a good used boat not a new boat.

The asking and selling prices between bottom of the barrel bargain boats and a good condition /maintained boat is generally no where near what it would cost you to get the derelict to the same condition. That was my point.

My buddy and his Catalina 30 is a prime example. I tried to talk him into a gorgeous 1988 model that had new sails, a re-power new standing and running rigging on and on and on. He stubbornly bought the one in rough shape for about 8k less to "save money". Within the first season he had already spent 12k fixing the fixer upper just to get it sailing. Ripped sails a failed furler and a bum transmission, among other things, all added up.. By the time he was done he had a C-30 that he had about 47k into that was still only worth mid twenties at best.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Dog , I saved that boat from the chainsaws. I paid 5 thousand for a hull the spars and four good sails delivered to my yard. I worked on it for about 8 or 9 years and made slow but steady progress. All ove one winter was spent designing and building the dinette table and dish cabinet unit.
 

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Sep 25, 2008
77
Macgregor 25 Naples, Fl.
Hold your horses boys....

and don't get into a uproar over my questions. I thank you all for the well thought out replies. Now let me give you all a bit more information and insight into what I have in mind for this boat.

The boat is in very good condition. The Atomic 4 is missing in action...gone with the wind. The PO had it pulled out and looked at by someone who didn't know what they were looking at and it was hauled off for junk.

The boat comes with 5 sails, all in good condition. Main, 2-Jibs, Genny, and Spinnaker. Whisker Pole, Spinnaker Pole , 2 year old standing and running rigging, & 2 year old custom alum. trailer. The decks are solid and show now signs of weakness, the bulkheads and chine plates are solid and show no signs of rot.
The interior furnishings are dated but sound.

Now I plan on putting an outboard on her for three reasons:
1. No stinkpot/noise on the interior of the boat.
2. To provide power at or near hull speed in calm coastal waters and the ICW and inland rivers as I cruise off into retirement.
3. Cost Savings

I already own the motor and therefore do not have to spend the 12,000 to re-power with diesel, or the 2,500 for the outboard.
I will have expenses to consider, because like every boat any of us have ever owned, she will need a lot of stuff just to make her mine.

As to one comment:
I don't mean to sound elitist, but if you can't afford to keep the boat in its original form, perhaps you can't afford a boat and should just give it up.
Give me a break, whether I can afford it or not isn't in question. If I am stupid enough to throw hard earned dollars at a simple solution I should take up politics. It seems like to me we call ourselves "Sailors"...not "Motor Sailors" so based on your analogy if we can't sail from the dock maybe we should just give it up.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Re: Hold your horses boys....

and don't get into a uproar over my questions. I thank you all for the well thought out replies. Now let me give you all a bit more information and insight into what I have in mind for this boat.

The boat is in very good condition. The Atomic 4 is missing in action...gone with the wind. The PO had it pulled out and looked at by someone who didn't know what they were looking at and it was hauled off for junk.

The boat comes with 5 sails, all in good condition. Main, 2-Jibs, Genny, and Spinnaker. Whisker Pole, Spinnaker Pole , 2 year old standing and running rigging, & 2 year old custom alum. trailer. The decks are solid and show now signs of weakness, the bulkheads and chine plates are solid and show no signs of rot.
The interior furnishings are dated but sound.

Now I plan on putting an outboard on her for three reasons:
1. No stinkpot/noise on the interior of the boat.
2. To provide power at or near hull speed in calm coastal waters and the ICW and inland rivers as I cruise off into retirement.
3. Cost Savings

I already own the motor and therefore do not have to spend the 12,000 to re-power with diesel, or the 2,500 for the outboard.
I will have expenses to consider, because like every boat any of us have ever owned, she will need a lot of stuff just to make her mine.

As to one comment:


Give me a break, whether I can afford it or not isn't in question. If I am stupid enough to throw hard earned dollars at a simple solution I should take up politics. It seems like to me we call ourselves "Sailors"...not "Motor Sailors" so based on your analogy if we can't sail from the dock maybe we should just give it up.
Mike,

If the boat is in as good of condition as you describe then it is certainly worth picking up a used A-4 and replacing it. The outboard may be fine for the ICW but I would not go outside with it as you'll have a tough time keeping it in the water and charging a house bank with it. It could also hurt any potential re-sale of the boat. One thing to also consider is that the weight of that A-4 engine was figured into the vessel so you may want to replace that weigh with tankage.

The A-4 is a good old engine and there are literally thousands still purring away. Personally I'd much rather see you buy a boat with a working motor or replace the missing one rather than cobble together an outboard on a 28 footer that will likely cavitate when you need it most...


How much are they asking for the boat?

Even in the condition you describe a boat with no motor is not worth very much and is a very tough sell especially in this market...
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Re: Hold your horses boys....

Well put. Fair winds and beautiful sunsets.
 

Manny

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Oct 5, 2006
983
Hunter 82? 37 Cutter Wherever the wind takes me
Go for it Mike

If you like the boat and have an outboard already go for it. Just make sure the price of the boat accurately reflects the lack of an inboard. Two pieces of advice I can offer are: 1) get a good mount with a lot of travel and 2) make sure the outboard has the correct pitch prop.
Nice thing about the outboard is that you can remove it at a later date if you feel you need to repower, it's only four small holes in the transom to patch. Also it's very quiet on the inside of the boat when running.
You should be okay with an 8 hp by the specs you gave. I have a 27' Hunter displacing 7000 lbs and I can get close to hull speed at 3/4 throttle with an 8 hp outboard.
If it is so choppy that the outboard pops out you should be sailing anyway:poke:

Manny
 
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BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
What is the outboard destined for the stern?

I just had a 3500 lb Lancer 25 which at various times had an 8 and a 9.9 hp extra long shaft outboard to power it. It seems like your expectations "at or near hull speed" are reasonable to cover use in protected waters. The biggest issue is sacrificing the boarding ladder, which is right where the outboard should go to optimize performance. That is where mine was, but I had no ladder to worry about. I didn't have much trouble with the outboard clearing the water, but I wasn't in the 4 foot following seas that I have since encountered during coastal cruising (coming through Buzzard's Bay into the Cape Cod Canal).

I understand that the ladder is a plus from a safety factor and also a plus in warm water where you can swim. Up here swimming is only performed if you REALLY can't get that lobster pot off your rudder/prop! Have you thought of having the pushpit reconfigured to move the ladder to port or starboard? There are many more fabricators in your neck of the woods. It wouldn't be all that much work to remove it and take it to somebody. Just a thought. Otherwise you really need to measure to see if an off-center mounting configuration is feasible.

A number of people have repowered their O'day 28 with an outboard after running out of luck with their saildrives. You may need to go as high as 15hp, but try to keep the weight down as it is hanging pretty far from your center of gravity and hence the impact of it is amplified (lever action). It can't be much worse that a 8-12hp 1cyl diesel in a 30 footer and they sold plenty of boats with those. You just need to recognize that it is a limitation and you clearly do so.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
My buddy and his Catalina 30 is a prime example. I tried to talk him into a gorgeous 1988 model that had new sails, a re-power new standing and running rigging on and on and on. He stubbornly bought the one in rough shape for about 8k less to "save money". Within the first season he had already spent 12k fixing the fixer upper just to get it sailing. Ripped sails a failed furler and a bum transmission, among other things, all added up.. By the time he was done he had a C-30 that he had about 47k into that was still only worth mid twenties at best.
Engrave that one on a brass plaque and screw it up on the clubhouse wall!
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
I agree. I ended up doubling the amount I planned to spend on a boat and still got a fixer upper (to my Wife's chagrin). However, as much as I love to sail, there is only so much money I can justify based on my situation. That is, no doubt, the situation for all of us whom do not number among the independently wealthy. However, to a certain extent the fixing is part of the fun too...to the extent that it doesn't interfere too much with sailing of course!
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I think that to a large degree the way you look at boat ownership is a most important factor in whether or not you buy the best boat of a particular brand or if you buy a particular shape and make it suit your tastes. People buy houses in great locations but set about remodeling them within the first year. When I bought my boat I knew that it was a once in my lifetime choice. I tend to keep things that please me and changing from one car, house, boat, or wife is usually expensive. The hidden and not so hidden costs are rarely figured into the cost of different. I maintain my car with the same dedication that I had when I bought it. My boat, my house and my marriage all get the same quality of care as they have gotten from day one. As a result there is never any reason for me to consider change.
 

Jim

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May 21, 2007
775
Catalina 36 MK II NJ
Read it again Ross

Here the part...

"I new boat, should, and I say should be, perfect!"

What does "should" mean?
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Here the part...

"I new boat, should, and I say should be, perfect!"

What does "should" mean?
To Me it means that you are just as likely to get quality in a good rebuild as you are in showroom new.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Depends on the boat... in some cases, the rebuild is better than the original factory work. :)
To Me it means that you are just as likely to get quality in a good rebuild as you are in showroom new.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
My vote is for the inboard, and here's why:

You talk about motoring when it is flat and calm, or relatively speaking, and sailing the rest of the time. The reality is there are going to be those time that don't fit the plan. Okay, onward with my thoughts.


1. Transom design: The original transom was not designed to hang a heavy motor on it and you're going to have to structurally reinforce it big-time to hang all that weight on it. Crawling back in there to glass the reinforcing isn't going to be fun, and glassing on a vertical to keep it from sliding down requires some knowledge.

2. ICW: I've never heard of anyone who has only sailed the ICW, but then I live on the West Coast. Maybe someone has, but I've read a lot of posts here and almost everybody talks about motoring and not much sailing. Even if you're retired, tacking back and forth in a channel bucking a headwind or current with the hot sun beating down can get awfully old after a while. Skin cancer comes to mind. I'd rather be under the dodger (or east coast, bimini), out of the sun and with the remote control for the autopilot in my hand.

In the Northwest there are those that travel the inside passage which can be a half-mile to several miles wide, water depths in the 200 to 600+ feet, all the room in the world, little traffic, and they still motor!

If you keep the boat for a few years and use it a lot, my guess is the outboard will get awfully old.

3. Cavitation - and, swamping: Everybody talks about cavitation which is a definite problem, but what about swamping? Sure, the newer outboards are more enclosed than they used to be but are they watertight? What will the saltwater do to the outboard if it gets up inside the cowling? Corrode stuff? What does that do to the electrical components? Can it cause the motor to quit?

Plus, if you ever had to work on the outboard it'd be a pain. Just don't drop a tool or part - ker-plunk! Inboard is no problem.

4. Dingy: Why not use the outboard on a good dingy (with a 9.9 on a dingy you could really scoot) and shop around for an inboard replacement.

Sure an inboard will make noise but you'll be out in the cockpit anyhow so it'll be less. If there's no motor now that means you can do an easier job soundproofing (don't forget to provide an opening for air, though). If you re-engine I've seen used 1 and 2 cylinder diesels for sale where people are upsizing to a larger motor. Used engines are out there and diesel gets good mileage. Ya just gota beat the bushes.

5. House electrical: This was mentioned before but for the sake of supporting the inboard I'll mention it again. An inboard is good for charging batteries but an outboard is much less so. I'd also go solar. If you want anything cold on board you'll need some kind of refrigeration so generating electricity will be a must. An inboard will give you the options that the outboard can't.

I think you'll be much happier in the long run if you opted to go the inboard route.

By the way, is she the Puget Sound or So. Cal San Juan?
 
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