Replacing/modifying lifelines

[Joe]

Thanks Doug, I was hoping to use the old fitting (turnbuckle) but I guess it is impossible to "uncrimp" a fitting.

No you can't "uncrimp" the fitting... but most of them are two part... a stud and turnbuckle, for instance.. so all you need to replace is the stud and attach the gate or turnbuckle to that.

When I replaced my stanchions and lifelines last summer... I used Garhaurer Marine for the custom built stanchions... opting for the stronger welded base version. 4 regulars @ $70 2 gate braced @ $95. $470 total.

And after a lot of research I went with the hand swaged fittings from Downwind Marine online. These are the DIY type made by Johnson Marine..very good quality. This pelican hook gate latch, for instance, was only $47.81... including the threaded stud. the turnbuckle and stud run around $23... etc.

If you're looking for studs only, about $10.

I purchase the Johnson hand swage tool for $50, it's specifically made for this equipment.

I also purchased the uncoated, 3/16" 1x19 316 stainless wire from them @$1.10/ft ( NOT wire rope, NOT vinyl coated.) This is the same wire you would use for your standing rigging. It is no longer recommended to use vinyl coated wire for lifelines anymore... many race organizers specifically forbid it.

Here's the result:

 

[SailsCallCapt]

Great info Joe, many thanks

 

[Jackdaw]

There are lifeline fittings out there that can be hand swagged, but you can't just use any old swage tool. You need the one from the manufacture that works safely with their fittings and wire.

Wow Sum that's kinda dangerous. You should never use a a simple hand swager for lifelines or standing rigging. You need a professional rotary swager to do the job correctly. Suncore says so in the documentation.

NOT FOR USE ON STANDING RIGGING OR HIGHLOAD APPLICATIONS.

 

[Sumner]

Wow Sum that's kinda dangerous. You should never use a a simple hand swager for lifelines or standing rigging. You need a professional rotary swager to do the job correctly. Suncore says so in the documentation.

NOT FOR USE ON STANDING RIGGING OR HIGHLOAD APPLICATIONS.

I never implied that one should use a hand swager for standing rigging!!

They do have lifeline fittings that work with their two different style hand swaggers. One like Joe posted and the other that I bought and posted a link to.

http://www.suncorstainless.com/hand-swage

These or for their hand swage life line fittings, NOT STANDING RIGGING. I never said to use the hand swager on standing rigging, just so that is clear.

They also have lifeline fittings that require a rotary swager. Most likely what you saw.

Sumner
=====================================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[Jackdaw]

I never implied that one should use a hand swager for standing rigging!!

They do have lifeline fittings that work with their two different style hand swaggers. One like Joe posted and the other that I bought and posted a link to.

Hey Sum two things:

One - Standing rigging and lifelines have the same requirements. You'll never find a rigger that says that hand tool is OK for lifelines. I've been slammed so hard into a lifeline that my back hurt for two weeks. I'd never rely on that hand tool to put them together. I'd use that to put lines around a patio, but never on a boat in SOLAS conditions.

Two - that tool Joe posts is not the same - It is a hand CRIMPER, designed to be used with special soft-metal Johnson parts. It may be more reliable based on that, but I personally would not trust it. But in any case its not the same.

Your boat your choise. I'm just trying to let others know the trade-offs and risks.

 

[Sumner]

...Your boat your choise. I'm just trying to let others know the trade-offs and risks.

True, your boat your choice. Joe and I and many others are using products and equipment from Johnson ( http://www.csjohnson.com/faq_marine.php ) and Suncor that are designed for lifeline fittings and feel fine about going this route. You wouldn't, that is fine, just maybe respect our decision, I'll respect yours.

...Two - that tool Joe posts is not the same - It is a hand CRIMPER, designed to be used with special soft-metal Johnson parts. ...

Likewise the tools from Suncor that were designed by them to be used with their 'special soft metal Suncor parts',

Sumner
============================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[jssailem]

Sumner. It is your boat and I respect your right to choose the equipment that serves your boat.

I looked into the Suncor product. Specifically I was trying to find working load data regarding the hand swaged fittings and technique requirements to achieve the WL data. I was unable to identify this data on their sight.
I did find their 2011 press release. (http://www.suncorstainless.com/sites/default/files/files/Press Release Suncor's Hand Swage.pdf) It states their engineers "aggressively researched and developed the SS Hand Swage Components". The company was "spurred to offer an affordable alternative during the economic crisis".

Reading the marketing hype I saw "cheap product to take advantage of lowest price option for people with limited funds". Granted that is a disparaging observation and maybe influenced by my experience with Government contracting based on "Lowest Priced" contracts. It also may be tinged by a concern for a critical piece of safety equipment that has no data regarding limits of use.

That is just what I want in a "LIFE LINE". The lowest cost option.

The swaged lifeline function is dependent on the performance of the swage to grip the line against shear forces. Without specific information regarding the holding capabilities of the good and bad technique used to make the swage, I am not sure the handswaged system will be able to keep you on the boat should you lose your footing and go flying into the wire.
Install Documentation http://www.suncorstainless.com/sites/default/files/E0113-H600_Suncor_Handswage_Instructions.pdf

 

[Jackdaw]

Likewise the tools from Suncor that were designed by them to be used with their 'special soft metal Suncor parts',

Again, your boat your choice. But Suncor does not even list that hand crimp fitting in the Marine lifeline page. They only suggest their own version of the Norsman fitting. I'm always willling to learn, so I'd be really interested in any bona fide source that recommends hand press fitting for lifelines.

http://www.suncorstainless.com/lifeline-kits

 

[Sumner]

..... I'd be really interested in any bona fide source that recommends hand press fitting for lifelines.

Go to the following link and down the page to their hand swage lifeline fittings and tools...

http://www.suncorstainless.com/hand-swage

Similar to what Johnson sells,

Sumner
=============================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[Ron20324]

I made 8 fittings on my months-old B323. I bought the large crimper sized for 1/8 and 3/16 bare wire. Even with the long length )20 inches?) of the crimper, it was still an effort to make the crimp on the lifeline/fitting joint. I dared not had them made off-site, so I had to measure each lifeline as I made them, as it was not the OEM length. There is some satisfaction DIY.

 

[Richard19068]

I looked into the Suncor product. Specifically I was trying to find working load data regarding the hand swaged fittings and technique requirements to achieve the WL data. I was unable to identify this data on their sight.

The swaged lifeline function is dependent on the performance of the swage to grip the line against shear forces. Without specific information regarding the holding capabilities of the good and bad technique used to make the swage, I am not sure the handswaged system will be able to keep you on the boat should you lose your footing and go flying into the wire.
Install Documentation http://www.suncorstainless.com/sites/default/files/E0113-H600_Suncor_Handswage_Instructions.pdf

Just as a point of information, and not drawing any conclusions:

The instruction for both hand swagers Suncor makes, the mini hand swager and the larger hand swager that Sumner used, state "THE ESTIMATED HOLDING PERCENTAGE IS 60-70% OF THE CABLE STRENGTH. NOT FOR USE ON STANDING RIGGING OR HIGHLOAD APPLICATIONS."

That doesn't sound very technical or state what testing they used to come up with the estimate but it does provide some reference.

The breaking strength of 3/16" 7x19 or 7x7 wire looks to be about 3,700 pounds so at 60% on the lower end you have an estimated holding power of about 2,200 pounds.

From what I can find US Sailing offshore regulations look like they require stainless lifelines of a minimum 1/8" for boats up to 28 feet and 5/32" for boats up to 43 feet. 5/32" wire has a breaking strength of about 2,400 pounds. That's a bit more than the 2,200 estimate in the example above.

Suncore clearly expects that these tools and fittings will be used for marine lifelines and sells them as such.

 

[Sumner]

.....The breaking strength of 3/16" 7x19 or 7x7 wire looks to be about 3,700 pounds so at 60% on the lower end you have an estimated holding power of about 2,200 pounds.

From what I can find US Sailing offshore regulations look like they require stainless lifelines of a minimum 1/8" for boats up to 28 feet and 5/32" for boats up to 43 feet. 5/32" wire has a breaking strength of about 2,400 pounds. That's a bit more than the 2,200 estimate in the example above.

Suncore clearly expects that these tools and fittings will be used for marine lifelines and sells them as such.

You don't use the 7x19 or 7x7 with the fittings. You use 1x19 and most of the charts I find show the strength of it in the 4000 to 4300 range, which with 60% gives you over the 2400 lb. requirement you mentioned.

I'm done and and happy that we now have new lifelines on the boat and not 1981 lifelines,

Sumner
==================================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[rpwillia]

Wouldn't it be just as easy to take them off and send them to a rigging company and say duplicate these? Got to be someone here who can recommend someone.

 

[Close Call]

I had my single lifelines done by Lifelines and Rigging.com. About $200.35 for my 30 footer. Sent them my old stuff and they reused the usable hardware. I think I had the new lifelines back within a week's time.
No affiliation, just a satisfied client.

 

[dLj]

I personally prefer welded stainless steel tubing for the top of the lifeline, not the wires. But that's on a cruising boat, not a racer...

dj