Refilling/Replacing Sea-Fire Automatic Fire Suppression Cannisters

[tfox2069]

Just went through this and see next to nothing here on the forum I thought I'd post in case someone else is thinking about doing this.

Sold my 2009 H36 and one of the conditions of sale was to replace the Sea-Fire automatic extinguisher in the engine bay. Surprisingly it was actually reading high (see photos), which no one (Sea-Fire, the surveyor or my broker) could explain. Possibly a bad gauge, but worrisome. I had noticed it previously but it had always read at that level and I couldn't find anyone to test/weigh/tag it. The model number for the extinguisher is a white tag on the right side of the fire extinguisher as you look at the gauge (see photo - mine was an FG 50A model). You need to replace it with the same model and that tag is the only place with that information.

You can find the bottles online (e.g. Go2Marine, etc.) and you'll find the prices for a new bottle pretty dear. Mine ranged from $300-$800 online depending on where I looked. Plus hazmat shipping. Pacificfireandmarine.com seemed to have the best prices, but didn't see how much their hazmat shipping was.

The bottle removed painlessly, but you have to cut the wires going to the engine control panel and then rejoin them when you reinstall. Otherwise I believe the engine won't start without an override. Polarity doesn't matter. Mine didn't have a manual pull, so that may complicate things more.

After looking online, and needing a bottle quickly (within a few days), I contacted Sea-Fire in Baltimore, which is ~50 miles from where the boat is on the hard in MD. They were pretty responsive, but I recommend calling a customer service person on the phone once you get an e-mail response. They are pretty knowledgeable and helpful. Once I provided a photo of the tag and the gauge they indicated that my extinguisher (circa 2009) wasn't refillable, but they had the replacement bottles in stock (some they have to order). They took my old bottle and disposed of it, and replaced it with a new one for $495 in one day. While it appeared I could find it cheaper online I couldn't have gotten it in time to close on the boat, and the final charges with hazmat and fedex would've probably added up to more than what I paid to get it directly from Sea-Fire. Sea-Fire says that that bottle is good "for life" as long as the pressure stays in the green. Practically speaking you're still gonna get dinged if its tag doesn't show its been inspected, is my guess.

What I haven't been able to find is someone who will come out and weigh and tag the engine extinguisher. Sea-Fire doesn't have a recommendation, and any surveyor (or Coast Guard boarding team) is going to look at that tag and say it needs to be inspected and certified, which means it needs to be either removed and weighed, or weighed in-situ. Good luck with either of those for engine bay fire extinguishers. Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on that front.

One last thought here. If you look on West Marine's site you'll see a Sea-Fire automatic suppression bottle for a WHOLE lot less - like $85. It is a different fire suppression gas (3M’s Novec® 1230) than the FM200 in the extinguisher I replaced. Both are gas, and (relatively) safe around humans (unlike the Halon they replaced) and used in the same application. Neither is harmful to the engine or electronics (or a mess to clean up). Would love to hear from someone knowledgable in this area, but they look to be for identical purposes and one costs 1/5 of the other for seemingly the same capability. Sea-Fire sells them both for the same application. I'll be looking into the Novec 1230 for $85 next time I need to replace a bottle and aren't up against a survey and time crunch. The cylinder for the Novec 1230 may need to be a little bigger to have the same effect, but otherwise looks to be better for the environment and cheaper. Here''s an info sheet on it:

Comparison of Fire Suppression Systems: FM-200 vs Novec 1230 | Control Fire Systems Blog

FYI, the only relevant thread I could find is from 2015, which gives you an eye-popping view of the price increases for the change to the more human and environmentally friendly FM200 gas used in today's automatic engine fire suppression bottles:

fire extinguishers type / difference question | Sailboat Owners Forums

 

[sail sfbay]

Wow that was expensive!! When I purchased my Hunter 46 he surveyor noted "the engine space automatic fire system gauge reads in the “recharge” zone – recommend having the unit re-charged". Replaced the Sea Fire FGA 123-295 50cf bottle in 2019 for $100 from my local fire extingusher dealer in Oakland, CA then wired it up as you noted. Price must have really shot up.

 

[Tally Ho]

Interesting…

My O’Day 322 has a halogen bottle in the engine compartment. No gauge on it, no tags and I didn’t notice a date on the bottle (but admittedly, I haven’t look too hard).

I called a local fire equipment company to see if they could service it…nope.

I have replaced all my cabin extinguishers to meet current regs, but can I get dinged for an additional “not required but maybe it would help” extinguisher in the engine compartment?

I will not be buying a new one… but would like to leave this old unit in place in case it helped snuff out a fire in the engine compartment.

Greg

 

[tfox2069]

Interesting…

My O’Day 322 has a halogen bottle in the engine compartment. No gauge on it, no tags and I didn’t notice a date on the bottle (but admittedly, I haven’t look too hard).

I called a local fire equipment company to see if they could service it…nope.

I have replaced all my cabin extinguishers to meet current regs, but can I get dinged for an additional “not required but maybe it would help” extinguisher in the engine compartment?

I will not be buying a new one… but would like to leave this old unit in place in case it helped snuff out a fire in the engine compartment.

Greg

I don't think you'll get any sort of citation if you have sufficient fire extinguishers aboard such that the engine fire extinguisher is "extra". If it had to count as one of your required extinguishers, then yes it would be citable if not properly tagged.

 

[FastOlson]

Very Interesting thread, about a brand of fire suppression system I had not heard of. Our boat came with a halon bottle in the engine compartment with a remote indicator light to show that it had not discharged. There is a gauge on the bottle.
I have had it recertified a couple times over the decades at a local extinguisher company. They remove the halon and weigh it, and put it back after the bottle is tested. Or something like that. They charge about 20 or 30 bucks.
I have replaced the remote indicator light when the bulb/lens cracked due to age. I also updated the wiring; it's on whenever the circuit is on for the lift pump. i.e. when the engine is operating. That's how Ericson wired it.

According to a surveyor, this fire bottle does not count toward the minimum number needed for our vessel. In any case it's useless as a portable fire fighting means. We have two of the 5# dry powder, and two of the 2.5# dry powder.
I have not heard of having this somehow tied into the engine starting circuit. That seems dangerous, since there would be emergencies when you need an engine quickly and would not want to have any possible electrical circuit problem to trouble shoot.

Speaking of certification, my insurer wants all of the extinguishers to be "in date". Considering the danger of a fire on board, I am inclined to agree with them on this point. I know a couple of surveyors that have said that too many sailors do not realize that a sinking might take over15 or more minutes before they would have to step up into a life raft, but a fire on board often requires an exit in under 30 to 60 seconds.
I will add a picture of the $$ extinguisher in place, and this all normally covered by a one-piece set of FRP steps

 

[Rich Stidger]

My 2 cents-
I have 2 automatic extinguishers in my engine and generator compartments. Each spring I remove them (NOT hard-wired, but have plugs) and take them to my local fire extinguished service business. They visually inspect, check the gauge and that stamped net weight, weigh on a postage scale, and apply a tag to certify compliance. The owner of this business is a friend and he charges me nothing. But I suspect that a typical charge would be about $10 each.
I don't see why this should be a big problem. Since the certification is only good for 6 months, I weigh them in April to be good through the sailing season. I don't have them re-weighed for the winter storage season.

 

[tfox2069]

Very Interesting thread, about a brand of fire suppression system I had not heard of. Our boat came with a halon bottle in the engine compartment with a remote indicator light to show that it had not discharged. There is a gauge on the bottle.
I have had it recertified a couple times over the decades at a local extinguisher company. They remove the halon and weigh it, and put it back after the bottle is tested. Or something like that. They charge about 20 or 30 bucks.
I have replaced the remote indicator light when the bulb/lens cracked due to age. I also updated the wiring; it's on whenever the circuit is on for the lift pump. i.e. when the engine is operating. That's how Ericson wired it.

According to a surveyor, this fire bottle does not count toward the minimum number needed for our vessel. In any case it's useless as a portable fire fighting means. We have two of the 5# dry powder, and two of the 2.5# dry powder.
I have not heard of having this somehow tied into the engine starting circuit. That seems dangerous, since there would be emergencies when you need an engine quickly and would not want to have any possible electrical circuit problem to trouble shoot.

Speaking of certification, my insurer wants all of the extinguishers to be "in date". Considering the danger of a fire on board, I am inclined to agree with them on this point. I know a couple of surveyors that have said that too many sailors do not realize that a sinking might take over15 or more minutes before they would have to step up into a life raft, but a fire on board often requires an exit in under 30 to 60 seconds.
I will add a picture of the $$ extinguisher in place, and this all normally covered by a one-piece set of FRP steps
View attachment 211910

So a couple of thoughts here. first, the surveyor is dead wrong on the engine room fire extinguisher not counting toward the required number of extinguishers on board. Here's the table straight from the US Coast Guard's website (Fire Extinguishers Requirements for the Recreational Boater FAQ):

As to the extinguisher circuit being wired to an engine cutoff, that is required (it clearly says so on the manufacturer's website). The reason is that if you have an engine fire and the extinguisher goes off, it needs the contents of that extinguisher to stay in the engine room to extinguish the fire. If the extinguishing gas is drawn out of the confined space too soon by any means either the fire will not be extinguished, or it will re-flash. Also, shutting off the engine shuts off the fuel pump, which hopefully keeps any more fuel from being fed into the situation. To your point about needing an engine quickly, the fire is the most dangerous thing at the moment while its going, so allowing the extinguisher to work sufficiently is more important than anything else at that time. In the rare case that the system shuts down the engine in error, there is an override installed at the engine panel in the cockpit to cover that possibility (see pic below). But you'd better check to make sure you don't have an engine fire before hitting that override. Your installation may be different, but on the boats I've owned that have had such a system installed that's how they're set up.

 

[Tally Ho]

So, if I read the chart for “no fixed system in engine compartment”, and have the required number of portable extinguishers, I would think I would be ok.

but who knows…

might depend on the CG personnel conducting the inspection.

I could just remove the halon bottle, but I would rather have it in the engine compartment 1) in case of fire and 2) in case it fires and snuffs out the flames. if not, I am in no worse shape than if I didn’t have it…I would resort to portable extinguishers.


Greg

 

[Dalliance]

Interesting thread. My boat never had any kind of automatic fire suppression system until just recently.

About this time last year, I was shopping online for two new fire extinguishers to meet the updated Coast Guard requirements and I came across these compact Jogoswall automatic extinguishers. They’re UL listed and, while they’re primarily marketed for use in cars & trucks, they are also approved for use in boats. I was intrigued by the idea of a compact, super easy to install (peel & stick), low budget automatic suppression system. So, in addition to a two pack of CG required portable fire extinguishers, I bought three of the little Jogoswall units and installed them in my engine compartment, behind the electrical panel and in the battery locker.

My insurance company, Chubb, liked the idea enough to knock ten bucks off my premium. I suspect that one in the engine compartment alone would have qualified for them. The small premium savings was of course not the reason I did it. It was about the added peace of mind.

https://www.amazon.com/Jogoswall-Automatic-Extinguisher-0-24lbs-extinguishers/dp/B095S3L4GT

 

[tfox2069]

So, if I read the chart for “no fixed system in engine compartment”, and have the required number of portable extinguishers, I would think I would be ok.

but who knows…

might depend on the CG personnel conducting the inspection.

I could just remove the halon bottle, but I would rather have it in the engine compartment 1) in case of fire and 2) in case it fires and snuffs out the flames. if not, I am in no worse shape than if I didn’t have it…I would resort to portable extinguishers.


Greg

My guess would be a Coast Guard inspection team would treat the "extra" extinguisher (e.g. your engine room halon bottle) like they do expired flares. As long as you have sufficient UNexpired flares (or fire extinguishers) onboard to meet the requirement, having some extras that are expired don't count against you, and provide some measure of backup or a potential additional margin of safety.

I'd vote for keeping the halon bottle. Here's one reason why: Halon is a gas and will not require a messy and possibly damaging cleanup like a dry chemical or foam fire extinguisher (although you MUST evacuate the fumes after the fire is definitely out because it will settle in low areas and could cause a suffocation hazard).

 

[njlarry]

Welding supply shops are often the best place to have these systems serviced.

 

[thinwater]

Unless it is a commercial vessel, the extinguisher must be in-date and less than 12-years old, but is not subject to inspection documentation standards (the rule says it must be inspected annually, but this can be by the owner and does not need to be documented).

USCG fire ext. rules, FR.

 

[tfox2069]

Unless it is a commercial vessel, the extinguisher must be in-date and less than 12-years old, but is not subject to inspection documentation standards (the rule says it must be inspected annually, but this can be by the owner and does not need to be documented).

USCG fire ext. rules, FR.

@thinwater many thanks for that pointer to the recent ruling which now relieves recreational vessels from having to get extinguishers inspected and have a current tag. I'll just add to your point about what now constitutes an expired extinguisher (12 years from the date of manufacture stamped on the extinguisher) that a fire extinguisher will be considered good if it:

• Is charged, and indicates it is charged if the extinguisher has a pressure gauge reading or indicator;
• Has a pin lock that is firmly in place;
• Does not show visible signs of significant corrosion or other damage; and
• Has a discharge nozzle that is clean and free of obstructions.

Really helpful.

 

[FastOlson]

Small but important detail: my fixed mount engine space extinguisher cannot be discharged by pulling a pin. It has a valve with a heat activated discharge mechanism. It cannot be "counted" as a hand operated extinguisher, even with a strong imagination.
Note B: even the best-appearing portable fire bottle can be rejected for checking and refilling IF the date stamped on the bottle is over xx years old. We have had to replace one for that reason.
Note C: I have experienced the effect of a 5# dry powder bottle emptying its contents inside a 34 foot sailboat. The cleanup took weeks. Lordy, what a mess!

 

[tfox2069]

UPDATE: I quoted the price from SeaFire as $495, but it appears they've refunded half of that back to me (since I exchanged the old one??) So the total price came out at $247, which is better than any online price plus shipping and Hazmat. Full props to the company, their customer support, and service to existing customers with outdated equipment - plus they worked with me on a very quick timeline.

 

[tfox2069]

Small but important detail: my fixed mount engine space extinguisher cannot be discharged by pulling a pin. It has a valve with a heat activated discharge mechanism. It cannot be "counted" as a hand operated extinguisher, even with a strong imagination.
Note B: even the best-appearing portable fire bottle can be rejected for checking and refilling IF the date stamped on the bottle is over xx years old. We have had to replace one for that reason.
Note C: I have experienced the effect of a 5# dry powder bottle emptying its contents inside a 34 foot sailboat. The cleanup took weeks. Lordy, what a mess!

While not written explicitly, so I'm extrapolating a little here, I don't believe the "fixed" engine room fire extinguisher has to have a manual pull in order to count as one of your extinguishers on board as long as its in the category of "fixed" engine room fire extinguisher. They are sold both with or without manual pulls, but if sold without are automatically activated by temperature. And yes, the timeframe for rejection of a fire bottle even if tagged properly is 12 years after the date of manufacture stamped on the bottle.

Can't imagine what a mess a dry fire bottle makes. Bet you're still finding residue!

 

[Tally Ho]

I “practiced” with my old extinguishers, spraying a fire in a garbage can in my back yard. Yes, it left a big mess…glad I discharged them outside. Also noted that they don’t spray very long.

My fixed halon extinguisher also had no manual trigger…just a heat-triggered mechanism.

I am told that the haylon is worth something, so maybe that is why @tfox2069 git a “discount” for sending his old one in. Was that a local delivery? I wonder if these could be shipped via UPS, FEDEX or USPS? I would think not.

Greg

 

[tfox2069]

I “practiced” with my old extinguishers, spraying a fire in a garbage can in my back yard. Yes, it left a big mess…glad I discharged them outside. Also noted that they don’t spray very long.

My fixed halon extinguisher also had no manual trigger…just a heat-triggered mechanism.

I am told that the haylon is worth something, so maybe that is why @tfox2069 git a “discount” for sending his old one in. Was that a local delivery? I wonder if these could be shipped via UPS, FEDEX or USPS? I would think not.

Greg

So the extinguisher I "traded" in wasn't filled with Halon (which is now no longer used in these applications due to its toxicity) it was filled with FM200, and it was not a refillable cannister, so I think it was more the company giving me a break for turning in an old one and getting it out of the market. And yes, my extinguisher was dropped off locally. You can ship via one or more of the three major shippers, but at least one of them will not ship extinguishers and those that will ship charge HAZMAT fees.

 

[Tally Ho]

So the extinguisher I "traded" in wasn't filled with Halon (which is now no longer used in these applications due to its toxicity) it was filled with FM200, and it was not a refillable cannister, so I think it was more the company giving me a break for turning in an old one and getting it out of the market. And yes, my extinguisher was dropped off locally. You can ship via one or more of the three major shippers, but at least one of them will not ship extinguishers and those that will ship charge HAZMAT fees.

Thanks for that clarification. I think the local fire equipment company I spoke to told me that Halon was no longer used (hence they could not service my old unit).

I will just leave it in place, have plenty of portable extinguishers in place around the boat, hope to never have a need to use one, and hope that the halon tank works if there is a fire in my very small engine compartment.

Greg

 

[LloydB]

FYI What is Halon 1301? Why is it Banned? | ORR Protection Systems
Same issues as the refrigerant replacement in your air conditioner or freezer as the original refrigerant is no longer manufactured or available by law but you can keep using the existing original if it has been approved by a certified and qualified technician in some situations
Rules for fire suppression systems for personal use can be less stringent than those systems designed for commercial use and their installation or inspection may require proprietary training by manufacturer only.
YRMV depending on the AHJ