Reefed sail shape not so good ...
- Thread starter Scott T-Bird
- Start date
Glad to hear you're fine after your surgery, recover well.
In the years I raced in SF, our C34 max headsail was 130. My largest was a 110. I did very well.
You may have seen this before:
A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362
Please read all three pages. Enjoy.
Yes, I've read that entire discussion and it opened my eyes! I bought that 150 genoa in my first year of boat ownership, when all I thought was "more sail area - better", right? Also, we had more light wind days on the lake. Now, our conditions are consistently calling for a reefed genoa and the cross-cut dacron is definitely blown out. At least one new sail, and perhaps another lightly-used sail is in my sights. However, Sue and I also have to think about our future with this boat or another. That's another story.
I noticed we're the only boat with rail meat. Wonder why?@Ward H , I'm pretty sure I see your legs over the rail in that first photo!I also remember telling you guys to get your asses on the wet deck at one time
Smaller boat?
Heavier rail meat?
Fear of not following Captain's orders?
Good deal, that's the goal!
Here's an analogy that I use to help new racers look at this.
You drive a car. Have since you were say 16. Have a drivers licence. Probably pretty good at it. OK.
Now image you are going enter a road race on a close track. Driving against semi-pro and keen amateur drivers. How do you think you will do? Dead last. Because they will be using skills honed while racing, expert in techniques you have not heard of before. They will use tactics based on track condition, weather, and competition. They will swap tires and suspension settings based on the above. They spend money to keep the car in 'race condition'. You're going to 'run-what-you-brung'. That's where you're at.
The BEST thing to do is to understand that, and keep asking questions. Because here's the best part. Good racers LOVE to share what makes them fast. Go talk to that guy on the Cat30. Race with him.
The mainsail clearly shows a nice shot of the draft. That by itself is contributing to a significant loss in boatspeed; it's way too far aft. Assuming that you are in conditions predicting a reef, the sail should not be as full as it is, and the draft needs to be moved much further forward.
If the boat is not overpowered, upright and sailing it's "proper" angle, chances are the seconds getting wiped off the counter will be smaller. You can win on time, although that thought is hard to work with when you see the bigger boats getting smaller on the horizon.
If the boat is not overpowered, upright and sailing it's "proper" angle, chances are the seconds getting wiped off the counter will be smaller. You can win on time, although that thought is hard to work with when you see the bigger boats getting smaller on the horizon.
No kidding! But I beat everybody to the line and the committee boat said I was just 1 second behind the horn! I'll take that as a small victory! The video from the committee boat that was posted on facebook was great! I wish I could figure out how to post it here. As it happened, we had 'Fraid Knot to leeward pretty close to us - maybe a little more than a boat length (they are the boat following us in the photos) with their bow pointed right at our stern. They were pinching just ahead of the start and it looked like they were trying to force us upwind. Knowing that I had to give way, I had to make a quick decision and I was thinking that I would have to yield to them. But I noticed that their boat speed was slower (pinching) as we were dialing up. So we just put the hammer down and put them clear astern. The gamble paid off as we crossed right on time and put them behind us. They got the last laugh but I was pretty proud of that one. Those are the examples that make this fun and exciting! We were close to them more than once. We rounded the leeward mark ahead of them twice in close quarters both times when we were able to catch up and overlap just before getting to the mark so they had to give us room. @Jackdaw would say that there is no way that they should have let us roll over them to windward - they could have forced us upwind of the mark much earlier. Maybe they were just toying with us??? We were still in it despite our troubles upwind, but that last long upwind leg killed us in the end.
@Ward H … what?!?!? I'm not dead yet! As I recalculate the time, I should be recovered for the race on the 27th. Then we're off to Vietnam in August. We just got our shots and malaria pills, but I'm not convinced that we'll need malaria pills.
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Maybe. Or maybe they were following Jackdaw's other advice and sailing their own race. In PHRF you have to make those kinds of decisions - do I force the other guy up, possibly keeping him from stealing my air and letting me stay ahead, or do I let him roll me and not yield that time to the rest of the fleet? Part of that decision is also the relative handicap of the two boats. If Leeward owes time to Windward then blocking is probably the wrong call - just staying ahead by those couple seconds is probably not enough to win by, and you'll just lose time to everyone else. If Leeward gets time from Windward then maybe a block makes sense, unless Windward is fast enough to just sail through it.
That’s pretty much it. The decision to ‘take a boat up’ is based on the current situation, and the competitive relationship between the boats. Any time you can keep a faster boat behind you its good. But you have to weigh the cost. Messing with a boat costs you time as well, and you have to remember the rest of the fleet.
In casual racing, you might also be dealing with a) A boat that does not know the rules b) a boat that does not know how to take tactical advantage of them c) A boat that does not want to ‘engage’ other boats in close proximity. When I race in other fleets, I’m often yelled at with ‘starboard’ when I’m going to cross by 2 boat-lengths. Getting good at time/distance/angle is a honed skill.
I'm sorry this thread got away from me. Most the comments I would make have already been stated very clearly. But it's been nice have a thread about sailing a race to read. Since I do a fair amount of OPB's I get a chance to sail with different skippers. Some good, some not. Most galling is the guy who stays in bad air for minutes or even tens of minutes because he won't tack. Usually that guy is complaining that boat feels sluggish or doesn't point. As Jackdaw wrote you just can't sail in bad air in PHRF fleets. I can think of many times when sailing an upwind leg and the skipper calls for a tack just to be nearer the fleet. Many times we're sailing in clean air with boat speed. I understand about covering the fleet but a lot of that in tactics was meant for one design racing where the boats are very close in speed - so boat on boat tactics is one of very few ways to get ahead. I think PHRF is different. Make sure your tacks are for a good reason.
Is that why so many club fleet boats when raced have dings on their sides?
It's called barging.
If they don't make room, you make room yourself. Then yell for room. (even if you're out of line) Unless you're from Canada, and then you offer a sincere "sorry".
I’ve often tried to correlate this. I think that ‘casual racers’ who do not see a lot of action often stay far apart, uncomfortable with their ability to judge T/S/D or boats in close proximity. They are the ones that will call starboard when there is no chance of them coming near you.
Experienced racers will usually feel comfortable with boats just inches apart. And their contact (if it happens) typically ends up being a scuff due to a hip check. Unless there was a major problem (loss of sight or trim issue) they rarely have big collisions. The serious T-bones are usually in casual racers.
Another point.
Often casual racers will complain about a more skilled boat ‘going in there’ when they had ‘rights’. These boats need to learn and understand the RRS concept of ‘space freely given’. Just because you have rights does not mean that I cannot use the space if you give it up freely, or do not use it.
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It's not entirely unlike the knowledge base and spatial awareness of depositing a full size f350 in pretty much any parking space, pretty much anywhere. Your rights or allowances are not very high on the list, all things considered.
So true Clay. And often not understood by the Casual Racer. Good reason for different classes of races. Can not remember a major dent when racing with competitive racers. On the contrary, many repairs, mostly minor, when in an open class.
It is definitely T/S/D issues. The honed skill you identify is also a knowledge of the space of your boat. A skilled driver can safely transverse a cone course within 6 inches of the cones because he knows the space his car occupies. An unskilled usually knocks most of the cones down. Knowing your boat and having the skill to read the other boats makes your time around the course fast. Unless the other boat does something they should not or something breaks on the competitions boat. Then DING...
I'm glad you made that point because it perfectly describes one of our roundings at the leeward mark. We were on a broad reach to the mark with wind on our port side and another boat clear ahead but to leeward. I don't know why they weren't on a direct line to the mark but I fully expected them to round ahead of us anyway. As we got closer to them, they were blocked from my view but @Ward H was on the bow and he said we're aiming right at them and we needed to duck behind them. I started to steer right, and just as they came into view, I saw them & it looked like they didn't have any boat speed. So I veered left and rounded the mark in front of them. Ward thought we fouled them, but I didn't think so. I'd say there was about 2 boat lengths between us. It didn't make any sense that they hadn't rounded ahead of us, but it also looked like 'space freely given' even though I wasn't aware of that concept!
Later at the party, I asked the skipper if I fouled him (I doubt that any one of them carry a protest flag). He said, no, and he described other issues that weren't related to us. He didn't seem unhappy, except that his own crew seemed to foul him up in that instance! We're definitely in a casual racer fleet, unless there's more that I haven't seen yet.
Just for the record, based on the photos and the results, I wouldn't say that we are 'a more skilled boat'. Lucky to recognize the advantage, I'd say. It is no different than any other competition … you take advantage of openings/competitors mistakes … with no sense of remorse.
This stuff is fun. It provides a whole new perspective on sailing that really stokes the interest!
I'm looking for Ward to start chipping in, but he's probably out sailing today, just like yesterday, and the day before and the day before that … the retired b-stard!
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