Re-powering!

[Kings Gambit]

Traditionally, an engine on a sailboat was purposed as auxiliary power, where the sails were the main power. Many early yachts, ‘60’s ‘70’s, used relatively small, low HP, inboard diesels. They offered little against much adverse conditions, but could propel the boat near HULL SPEED in smooth waters for fairly long distances if needed. These designs were replaced with yachts with bigger diesels, designed for cruising yachts, with more HP to the point where it isn’t as clear as to what is the auxiliary power, sail or motor, etc. At least up to the point of fully motor yachts, where the roles are reversed, i.e., auxiliary sail.

Purely electric engines on sailboats put the clock back to even before diesel auxiliaries. They offer no practical advantage over even a small inboard diesel of yesteryear. But, as Stu said, if you are not looking for much “engine time”, and have regular shore-side charging—basically, not going anywhere that you cannot sail there and back—then it might work out.

The closest I am to personal experience is watching a friend covert his 30 ft to electric motor. He was not a “cruiser”; a live-aboard who was a very good sailor. He reported being happy with the conversion. If it makes you happy, go for it!

 

[tfox2069]

I follow these conversions with interest. I've owned an electric car since 2012 when I bought a Nissan Leaf and haven't looked back (although I still own an SUV for longer distances, camping, hauling, etc.). It is critical, however, that you carefully examine your use case and make sure that what you're buying will work for it (my electric cars are used primarily for commuting). Clearly the OP has done this, so kudos there.

Separately, I do wonder what resale is like for a boat with such a vastly different setup like an electric motor. My guess is you'd never get anywhere near back in resale what you spent repowering to electric. Also, that 1968 motor he replaced ran for over half a century before replacement. Those batteries will need to be replaced periodically on the electric drive system - probably at least 5x if the electric motor is kept in service as long as the original motor, which will substantially run up the total cost of ownership over the life of the motor.

Anyway, just some idle thinking. I personally think its a very cool idea under the right circumstances.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Actually, now that you got me thinking about it, what actually are these things for? The electrics cannot really be classified as auxiliary power in a sailboat b/c there is no “power.” From what I see, they cannot propell the yacht at its HULL SPEED for many hours, e.g., overnight. The only things DC power is useful for on a sailboat is powering windlasses and winches, autohelms, lights, small electric pumps, and refrigeration. These are either low wattage and/or of short, intermittent-duration power draws from batteries that can fully (well, nearly) recover charge at sea-usually with diesel assist. Take away the diesel, now you must keep up charge for those items in addition to the charge for the “engine.” How does that work? Purely solar? I don’t see it.

These are not like EV’s for the road where you recharge overnight somewhere away from home, unless maybe in a guest slip. None place at the islands.

 

[tfox2069]

Actually, now that you got me thinking about it, what actually are these things for? The electrics cannot really be classified as auxiliary power in a sailboat b/c there is no “power.” From what I see, they cannot propell the yacht at its HULL SPEED for many hours, e.g., overnight. The only things DC power is useful for on a sail boat is powering windlasses and winches, autohelms, lights, small electric pumps, and refrigeration. These are either low wattage and/or of short, intermittent-duration power draws from batteries that can fully recover charge at sea-usually with diesel assist. Take away the diesel, now you must keep up charge for those items in addition to the charge for the “engine.” How does that work? Purely solar? I don’t see it.

Don't forget the biggie - refrigeration.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Don't forget the biggie - refrigeration.

It’s in there.

 

[Rick Webb]

Don't forget the biggie - refrigeration.

Or air conditioning

I believe what we are more likely to see are generators powering electric motors to drive the boat. Some battery power to just get in or out of the slip and the option using the generator to drive the electric motor for extended motoring.

 

[tfox2069]

Or air conditioning

I believe what we are more likely to see are generators powering electric motors to drive the boat. Some battery power to just get in or out of the slip and the option using the generator to drive the electric motor for extended motoring.

I actually love the idea of a generator for the "edge" cases for electric powered vehicles. Having owned/leased a three electric vehicles in the last 9 years, I thought the overall most useful one was the Chevy Volt. It was the only one of the three that had an "auxiliary" motor which could run the car when the drive battery was "flat". My round trip commute was within the electric range of the car, so I rarely used the small 4 cylinder engine. I didn't need an oil change in the 3 years I leased the Volt, and I would get up to 1,500 miles on a tank of 8 gallons of fuel, since I mostly commuted within the electric range and recharged at night at home. And if I needed to drive 200 miles or more in a day I could just keep refueling it like a regular gas powered car.

I thought that a small diesel would be even more efficient in that car, though US car manufacturers almost universally shun diesels except for work trucks. Looking at it from a marine perspective I think it makes TREMENDOUS sense to have a diesel generator on board to recharge the batteries for longer trips - as well as a propellor shaft generator, which while reducing your speed still returns electricity to the batteries while you're sailing and letting the prop shaft turn. Small diesel generators are very fuel efficient, and would give you the option to motor long stretches if you needed to. If you were cruising and wanted to go electric, having a wind generator, solar, prop shaft generator and small diesel generator as power sources would give you complementary and redundant charging sources.

 

[dlochner]

Actually, now that you got me thinking about it, what actually are these things for? The electrics cannot really be classified as auxiliary power in a sailboat b/c there is no “power.” From what I see, they cannot propell the yacht at its HULL SPEED for many hours, e.g., overnight. The only things DC power is useful for on a sail boat is powering windlasses and winches, autohelms, lights, small electric pumps, and refrigeration. These are either low wattage and/or of short, intermittent-duration power draws from batteries that can fully recover charge at sea-usually with diesel assist. Take away the diesel, now you must keep up charge for those items in addition to the charge for the “engine.” How does that work? Purely solar? I don’t see it.

The power in the "auxiliary power" is the motor and batteries, just as a diesel doesn't provide any power until you add fuel. The world of DC power is moving past 12v, 24v, and is now landing in the 48v range. Higher voltages off some advantages and increased efficiency. The Torqeedo Deep Blue line of 100KW electric motors run on 360v. The one advantage AC has over DC is less current loss over long transmission lines necessary for the power grid.

LiFePo batteries offer a lot of power in a small lightweight package. On a long distance cruising boat LiFePo is the only way to go. Batteries are recharged with solar and regeneration, the motor serves as a hydrogenerator, when sailing the prop turns and the motor becomes a generator. Oceanvolt has a sail drive unit that can do this.

Solana Yachts now produces an all electric 46' yacht.

While Jimmy Cornell tried a zero emission boat to circumnavigate, he found the solution did not work, for the reasons you suggest, it is difficult to fully restore the power used with solar and regeneration. He abandoned his journey.

The schooner refit I"m involved with is considering repowering with electric. For its intended use, 100% electric is not an option, however, combined with a generator it may be a cleaner and more economical solution than a new diesel. One significant advantage of electric with a generator is the generator can be much smaller and more efficient than using the diesel auxiliary for charging. A 200 amp alternator needs about 6 hp to run at full power. The schooner has a 100 hp diesel. Using the auxiliary to charge the battery wastes about 90 hp. Where as a diesel powered generator could produce about 10 kw with 30 hp and in the process run more efficiently

At this point, I think we've moved off the bleeding edge of electric auxiliary, but we're still on the cutting edge.

XLVI

www.salonayachts.com

Frontpage

Pioneering electric propulsion for boats with superior hydrogeneration.

oceanvolt.com

 

[Hello Below]

Separately, I do wonder what resale is like for a boat with such a vastly different setup like an electric motor. My guess is you'd never get anywhere near back in resale what you spent repowering to electric.

That may depend on how long it is before that electric powered sailboat is offered up for sale. Although I for one will not be around to witness it, but let's look ahead 30 years (or 4 years in some countries - as in Norway) when you cannot buy a light vehicle at your dealership that is powered by fossil fuel. If that comes true as proposed, then I would think that trying to acquire diesel or gas to fill the tank will become as difficult as trying to purchase CNG in 2021. At some point boats with ICEs will be avoided like the plague. And if you think sailboats will have a problem, I dare say that motor vessels under 60' will go by the way of the dodo bird. The OP may be ahead of his time. Interesting times ahead for my off springs.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Dave, thank’s for the updates, but let’s not be obtuse. By “power,” I clearly mean the power to propel a yacht at its hull speed for a sustained period, such as overnight—many hours. Of course, any machine that does work needs some type of fuel. The big selling points of the electrics are quietness and eco-friendliness. But we’re already talking about the quietest, most eco-friendly form of conveyance—-sailboats. All of the motoring of all sailboats in all of the world probably would not sum annually to the “carbon impact” of one large modern city, or a handful of cruise or container ships. A solution here in search of a problem, IMHO, from that perspective.

 

[FastOlson]

While my comment is only from reading about other sailors' success .....
We do have a young couple posting regularly on the Ericson owners site that repowered their (restored) 35-2, and went cruising. They built out their own system, and do seem to be pretty technical and handy. Starting from Seattle, they sailed down to SoCal, and then to the South Pacific. Now they are in NZ ....
(quarantining near some other sailers that we know -- it's good to be in paradise during a pandemic.)

They deliberately chose a boat that sails very well in light air, and indeed they do sail a lot. (!)
They always maintain some reserve power for getting into harbors.
They are making this system work in the 'real world'.

While my own sailing and cruising plans do require a diesel aux, at least this is one actual data point for an example of long distance cruising with only electric power.

Worth noting that they are now completing a new hard bimini with added solar cells on top, also.

 

[Kings Gambit]

That may depend on how long it is before that electric powered sailboat is offered up for sale. Although I for one will not be around to witness it, but let's look ahead 30 years (or 4 years in some countries - as in Norway) when you cannot buy a light vehicle at your dealership that is powered by fossil fuel. If that comes true as proposed, then I would think that trying to acquire diesel or gas to fill the tank will become as difficult as trying to purchase CNG in 2021. At some point boats with ICEs will be avoided like the plague. And if you think sailboats will have a problem, I dare say that motor vessels under 60' will go by the way of the dodo bird. The OP may be ahead of his time. Interesting times ahead for my off springs.

Actually, your point is one of mine left unsaid. But since you brought it up, it is almost a certainty that in not too many years a sailboat, at least, will not be allowed to enter a harbor under ICE power. BTW, this won’t apply to the dedicated motor yachts b/c those guys will lobby out of it; many more of them, generally wealthier.

 

[stephen_i_w]

"Sailing Uma" converted a Pearson 36 to electric power on the cheap, then again to a more elaborate installation. I found their videos and website informative on this subject.

Sailing Uma— ELECTRO-BEKE

www.sailinguma.com

 

[dlochner]

BTW, this won’t apply to the dedicated motor yachts b/c those guys will lobby out of it; many more of them, generally wealthier.

Perhaps they will lobby, however ports are getting quite serious about pollution. Its raising havoc in the shipping world with freighters needing to have 2 fuel sources, a clean one and bunker fuel.

One option large yacht builders are exploring is the 1 hour (I think that's the term) electric propulsion system. The idea is the yacht uses electric propulsion to enter and leave the harbor and once out to sea it shifts to diesel.

A couple of interesting articles:

In Brief: Two Smaller Startups - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine

Startups Electric Yacht and Electroprp focus on niches in the electric propulsion market

www.proboat.com

A Tale of Two Companies - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine

The quest for efficiency, reliability, and profitability in electrical and hybrid propulsion systems

www.proboat.com

 

[Kings Gambit]

As I live near the No. 1 and No. 2 shipping ports in the USA, Los Angeles and Long Beach, respectively, I know one major issue is not what they drive in on, but how the boat’s systems are maintained in port. That is, the power to keep the ship alive. Usually, and historically, the ship’s diesel-powered machinery, directly or indirectly, is used. Recently, I think, some shoreside electric power cabling was added, but not at all berths. Ports are going to need to do a lot more than require electric entry if they are going to achieve significant reduction in local carbon emissions.

 

[jssailem]

I have said that this adventure in repowering is a great opportunity for the OP to explore his boat and his passions.

Reading todays comments brought to mind one of the management concerns I have when handling my boat. The raising and lowering of my anchor. There are many systems on the boat that can consume the stored battery power. At the top of the hog list for my 35ft boat is the electric windlass. This issue becomes even more concern should a storm arise and I need to raise and reset my anchor to keep the boat safe. Like trying to start a finicky truck with a low battery. Unless you have enough stored power you may still be sitting in the driveway.

The power supplied by the diesel has plenty of reserve to manage this task safely.

All electric has me needing to consider the state of charge in the battery bank, nor the fact that it is 9PM and it will not be till maybe noon before I can adequately start to recharge my battery bank from the solar system.

Of course you can deal with this by installing a manual windlass or just pull the rode and anchor up by hand.

 

[jon hansen]

it's good friday. John the OP is a great lakes sailor. with no coral, chain is not needed. that said, a windless is just an ornament. a jib winch will suffice as needed.

 

[jon hansen]

ships of course do not use their propulsion engines to make electricity.

 

[jssailem]

Makes sense Jon. There are many ways to skin the cat. For the OP it sounds like he has a solution that fits his desires and accommodates the sailing experiences he enjoys.

Not yet noon here. Another 90 minutes before I rest...

 

[jssailem]

I see what you did there.

clever.