Racing rules question RE: reefing/reducing sail

[Jackdaw]

Here, from a recent race of the San Diego Yacht Club. There are many alterations to RRS, including your switch to COLREGS during night. (They don't seem sheepish about it here in the SIs.) Hope we're getting close to establishing my earlier statement as, if nothing else, functionally correct in SOME respects?

http://sdyc.org/uploads/documents/2015/rumrunner_si.pdf

OK OK I'll stop! ;^)

But I could have saved you a lot of typing. The RRS rules the SDYC SIs change are in Part 4 (other requirements) and 5 (protests etc) where I noted changes ARE allowed and are mostly procedural. The huge bulk of actual rules you encounter on the water are in the unchangeable sections.

At least the SDYC uses much better wording when they change Part 2. A LOT of fleets are looking at how to address boats meeting at night. Going to COLREGS and better defining the time help. But it is still a huge gray area, and technically not allowed. And they do it in their SIs.

 

[weinie]

Hey... I take offense to "weenie out and reef".

 

[Roadking Larry]

This seems more about "seniors" at a particular club, rather than a Rules discussion. Like anyone used to being in charge or winning, they don't want to rock the boat. If my crew and I were a bit older (these days that's counted in seasons, not decades!), I would not want to put in or shake a reef mid-race either. I'd make it a local rule that if you can't predict the wind as well as someone with 20 years on the lake, you just won't be able to compete with us. As in all competitions (racing, business, politics, etc.) when the old guys are making rules, their first consideration is "how will this keep me on top?"

The "olde farte" in question really has nothing to worry about as far a being the guy on top. He's just that much better than the rest of us and he's always willing to share his knowledge and experience with the club. (As Vice Commodore of Racing I do think I need to add a few "experience points" to his handicap though )
As far as a "show me" throw down goes, as long as the bottle of rum is passed with the book I don't think we'd have any problems.

I really appreciate the discussion on this. I've only been racing for a couple of years now and have tons to learn. I've never seen a "formal" SI for our club races and kind of doubt any exist. Looks like one of the things I'll want to do is draft up a generic set of SIs for our club races so we can settle these sort of disagreements once and for all.

 

[Jackdaw]

So, forgive, but I think we have not fully resolved the issue of whether the OP's YC can make a rule in its SIs that says that reefing of the mainsail is not allowed during the race, or that if reefed, cannot be returned to full hoist, and not be inconsistent with the RRS,

Huh? Yes we have.

Because the RSS makes NO MENTION of reefing, local authorities are free to create whatever rule they want in that regard. Is it wise? No comment. Do that have one in place now? Only the 'old guys' know.

 

[Davidasailor26]

So, forgive, but I think we have not fully resolved the issue of whether the OP's YC can make a rule in its SIs that says that reefing of the mainsail is not allowed during the race, or that if reefed, cannot be returned to full hoist, and not be inconsistent with the RRS, if they choose to so adopt. I can see where this rule might be needed. Many small boats, such as Cal 20s, have mainsails that do not have reefing points. Probably a class rule. If the Cal 20 (or similar) design raced in PHRF and encountered high wind, it could not reef the main, but it might strike its jib. Another boat with reefing capability might reef her mainsail but keep the jib deployed, thus giving her an advantage over the one-design, instead of finding and using all of the high-wind tweaks that a GOOD SAILOR would use to keep going under full hoist of her mainsail. So, if you weenie out and reef, you don't get to come back into the race later under full hoist (e.g., after the T-storm passes). In some types of local races, that seems OK to me!!!

I don't disagree that the YC should be able to make this rule if they choose to, as long as they document it properly and not leave it to a word of mouth. However, I'm not convinced that the situation you describe is a good reason for such a rule. After the storm passes, without any more rules, the boat that doused its jib would be just as able to re-hoist as the boat that reefed. So the only disadvantage would be to the boat without the jib during the storm, but there are so many other variables between PHRF boats that I don't like the idea of "legislating" a solution. I'd be concerned that you're going to chase more people away from racing by forcing them to choose between getting beat up upwind or watching the competition sail past downwind.

 

[Jackdaw]

The "olde farte" in question really has nothing to worry about as far a being the guy on top. He's just that much better than the rest of us and he's always willing to share his knowledge and experience with the club. (As Vice Commodore of Racing I do think I need to add a few "experience points" to his handicap though )
As far as a "show me" throw down goes, as long as the bottle of rum is passed with the book I don't think we'd have any problems.

I really appreciate the discussion on this. I've only been racing for a couple of years now and have tons to learn. I've never seen a "formal" SI for our club races and kind of doubt any exist. Looks like one of the things I'll want to do is draft up a generic set of SIs for our club races so we can settle these sort of disagreements once and for all.

Perfect!

See if there are SIs. If you have local rules there has to be, or it's hard to enforce them. If you don't have them, you should draft them. Drop me a message and I'll send you a blank template that has a form to get you started

 

[Jackdaw]

RKL,

Send via email as well.
Find linked a Simple SI template form US Sailing. These are the sections that a SI SHOULD have in minimum. Just replace each section with simple clear language and you'll be good. If you want me to look at it just ask!

http://www.ussailing.org/race-officials/rules/simple-sailing-instructions/

One thing about SIs is that you'll need to agree on a protest process. That often means a PC (Protest Committee) with a chair and members. Complex! You could also just say all protests not absolved on-the-water (spins) are dealt with by binding arbitration on shore. That's one person making the call easier.

Put it on-line when you are done.

PS - Always good to read other clubs SI for ideas on wording. Google 'Sailing Instructions'. Ours is here.

http://wyc.org/Portals/0/forms-docs/Racing-SI.pdf

 

[JohnVTX]

The problem is that going up wind, the jib is the driving force. If I'm forced to drop my jib b/c I physically cannot reef the mainsail, while the other guy reefs the main on a upwind leg but keeps going with most of the jib deployed, I'm toast. Re-hoisting after the storm, but I've still lost.

Well DUH! That is racing dude. Looking ahead and making choices. So far You have made no sense in this link. I would suggest you just don't race.

 

[weinie]

Well DUH! That is racing dude. Looking ahead and making choices. So far You have made no sense in this link. I would suggest you just don't race.

Or just do what I do. When racing, if I feel the conditions pick up to the point where my martini is about to spill on my freshly varnished teak deck, I immediately come about and head to my mooring.

 

[JohnVTX]

Yeah-- well here's your contribution. Try making sense of that--dude.

Good luck with your cowboy approach to doing whatever you feel like doing in a race. Sanctioned or not, you are dangerous in your approach to sailing.

 

[JohnVTX]

Or just do what I do. When racing, if I feel the conditions pick up to the point where my martini is about to spill on my freshly varnished teak deck, I immediately come about and head to my mooring.

At least it's not a rules violation.....

 

[JohnVTX]

I can guarantee you that a large percentage of ordinary "racers" either do not carefully read if at all, or even carry a copy of, the SIs of a race that they have entered, much less the latest version of the RRS. So, many wouldn't know a rules violation from a racing tactic. I suppose for those habitually in last, or next to last, place, or always somewhere in the middle, the rules are probably "irrelevant." Ignorance is bliss, it's doubtful someone on the course is going to protest you, and the RC will usually be up at the bar waiting for the first finishers, etc.

I would enter any race with Jackdaw, none with you.

 

[weinie]

see attached

 

[JohnVTX]

Aren't you a little old for hero worship?

Nope, just smart.

 

[Jackdaw]

see attached

;^)

This is our simple racing hierarchy. Never break a high priority to accomplish a low priority.
1) Crew safe
2) Boat safe
3) Have fun
4) Sail fast
5) Win

 

[Stu Jackson]

Over the course of the past almost two decades that we've had our boat and the thirty years that our boats have been around, we have had the pleasure of having our own Catalina 34 one design class/starts in both the six race summer & winter racing series run by yacht clubs, as well as our own Catalina 34 Fleet 1 San Francisco Cup two day race series with cruising and racing divisions, and occasionally our C34 National Regatta. We have a strong racing presence on The Bay, as well as a great cruising schedule each year.

Like many one design fleets, we have the "old timers" (I guess I can include myself in that now ) and some new skippers, some of whom have purchased and now race boats formerly owned by other skippers who had raced and some new boats.

A few years ago a new skipper bought a C34 and joined the racing fleet. He did back-of-the-pack the first year or so, even though he had a mouth that would convince you he won, he knew everything and no one else had a clue.

As time went by, his boat climbed in the standings to a usual second or third place consistently during the course of the seasons. Then last year he started dropping down, just as consistently. He, like many others, had a stable crew who sailed together often, if not always. None of them accompanied him to the yacht clubs after the races, though. He was also the first skipper to get himself into situations where a protest was even considered and most of the times initiated by him. He lost them all.

During one memorable skippers meeting after a race series, this fellow asked, "What can we do to get more boats from the cruising division into (hard core) racing? Why can't these jerks (his words, not mine) just pony up and get the folding props, new sails, whisker pole gear and full crew all the time so they can race I can beat them, too?"

The stunned silence that greeted this outburst was deafening.

What a way to encourage participation!

For some reason, like maybe human nature, any group may end up having a jerk or two within it.

We're fortunate, 'cuz after 30 years, he's the ONLY one!

Doesn't mean you can't have fun. But knowing the idiots to avoid is part of the fun.

Play nice together, it's a lot more fun.

 

[cb32863]

I can guarantee you that a large percentage of ordinary "racers" either do not carefully read if at all, or even carry a copy of, the SIs of a race that they have entered, much less the latest version of the RRS. So, many wouldn't know a rules violation from a racing tactic. I suppose for those habitually in last, or next to last, place, or always somewhere in the middle, the rules are probably "irrelevant." Ignorance is bliss, it's doubtful someone on the course is going to protest you, and the RC will usually be up at the bar waiting for the first finishers, etc.

You "race" at the wrong club then, if you even do so. Our (Jackdaw's and mine) club has some of the most informed sailors I have ever seen. My reference is sailing with them in 9 fleets and 120 or so boats on a Thursday night and "experts" on forums. I guess our club is the exception as to the norm, which is very unfortunate as we have a blast every race, we all know the rules and we are there to help everyone else get better.

 

[mm2347]

Many years ago as a young man I sailed for my first time as a guest in a club sail boat race. It was fun on the water but after there was a protest meeting that went on for hours. I left as it seemed there was more argument about the rules than about the violation of them. It wasn't about the sailing. Didn't get back in a sail boat for years. Older and more tolerant, I have come to love the sport of sailing and have noticed that there is not much local sail boat racing. I have to agree that anyone that would take on being in charge of a race should be praised not nitpicked. Get real guys! Is it about sailing or who wants to argue?

 

[Jackdaw]

Many years ago as a young man I sailed for my first time as a guest in a club sail boat race. It was fun on the water but after there was a protest meeting that went on for hours. I left as it seemed there was more argument about the rules than about the violation of them. It wasn't about the sailing.

That's a bummer and really too bad it happened. And it should be avoidable. Well-run protests hearings should not leave much room for argument. They should:
1) Read the protest form and establish validity of filing (you'd be AMAZED how many get thrown out here)
2) Listen to both sides (and any witnesses)
3) Form a documented narrative regarding what happened based on #2 (facts found)
4) Apply RSS+SIs to the facts found to adjudicate the protest
5) Determine who is exonerated, and who is DWQ or SPA
6) Announce/publish findings

If a party does not agree with how #4 happened, they can appeal to their club and then US Sailing, normally they will not hear a protests on a disagreement with facts found.

My 'worst' protest was my last one. Final AIS series on Kestrel (the First 36.7). We protested two other boats for failure to finish (correctly) on a shorted course. It took two days plus turning the final session into redress hearing because it got so complex. The night of day#1, we tried to sort it out with fisticuffs.

Finally the PC rules in our favor, we are moved to first and the two boats that 'finished' in front of us get SPA (Scoring Penalties Applied) and move down. The key to good outcomes in protests is simply knowing the rules. And having ISAF certified judges helps. So if I break a rule I just turn. But when I know I'm right, you're in trouble if it ends up in the room. In this hearing as soon as fact found were done I knew we won. It was just a matter of how the scoring would end up. It was a messy messy deal.

 

[Butch23065]

I understand where Roadking Larry is comming from. I was the fleet-captain racing for one year with our club. He does need to be congratulated on accepting the job. We had raced for approximately 6 years and continued to race while I was in that position. What I found was there were a lot of people more than willing to help me. We wrote the SI's and changed a couple of things that were causing problems in past races. I immeadiately got emails from older wiser racers saying things like "do you mean" or we tried that once and here was the results. One thing I changed was the order of starts. First start true cruising followed by non-spinnaker and lastly spinnaker. At the start of the first race I saw that was not a good idea. The slower accelerating large boats coming to and crossing the line were constantly dodging the quicker smaller boats. It was not safe in my opinion. I got hate mail from one spinnaker fleet captain that said he had earned the right to go first. Didn't even ask if I would reconsider. I had just posted the change back. Listen to the geezers but yu don't have to do what they say if it is not correct. You are in charge.