Racing rules question RE: reefing/reducing sail

Jackdaw · Feb 9, 2016

There is nothing in the RRS about it, because the RSS does not limit it.

Therefore, unless your SIs or local rating board (PHRF?) limits it, you can carry (and change to or reduce to or add to) any sail config LESS than your rated sail area. And do so at any time and without limit. If you wanted to take down your main and put up a heavier one you can. You can reef both main and headsail. This is a HUGE safety tenant ingrained in sailing. In our distance races, our SIs require us to carry special heavy weather sails.

Existing RSS Limits:
There is a clear distinction between a headsail and a spinnaker.
You can only fly one headsail or main at a time.

Fun non-limits (OK things):
You can fly two 'spinnakers' at a time (bloopers which rate as a jib see below)
You can fly a headsail and a spinnaker at the same time (we often do this)

Common SI/local rating limits/requirements:
Type of sailcloth
Number of headsails carried
Number of spinnakers carried
Mandatory storm sails

It is not the nature of the RRS to list ALL LEGAL behavior. That would be incredibly long and probably impossible. So just because it is not expressly listed there (like going to the bathroom) does not mean you cannot do it.

I'd be interested to hear where these old-timers think this is prohibited. Please have them quote RSS section or include your SIs.

uncledom · Feb 9, 2016

Rule 50.1
CHANGING SAILS
When headsails or spinnakers are being changed, a replacing sail may be fully set and trimmed before the replaced sail is lowered. However, only one mainsail and, except when changing, only one spinnaker shall be carried set at a time.

US Sailing 2013-2016 rules

alexco38 · Feb 9, 2016

We reef all the time.

In one international race, we flew the jib and asym together. The asym forward of the jib in reverse thus creating an extra large jib for fun due to next to no air. All totally legal.

uncledom · Feb 9, 2016

If it is a local rule it should be in your rule book. It's a great time of the year for reading. Light a fire, grab a glass of sherry......

Jackdaw · Feb 9, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
A club can have just about any rules it wishes for the boats in its race. Normally, RCs follow the RRS so as not to have to write all the rules themselves and so state in the SIs that those rules will be applied, unless.... The SIs for a given race can also specify changes in reference to the RRS. Such as, "This changes rule ...." or "This is in addition to the RRS ...." The "seniors" are telling you about the traditional rules of the club races that you now run. Could be that there are good reasons for those rules; maybe they can explain them if they haven't already. However, IMHO, it's generally not good form for the "newbies" to buck the "established order" just getting out of the gate!! So, frankly, I don't think your "show me" plan is a very good one.

I think I mentioned that; that he needed to consult their SIs. I tried to look. I assume its the Spindrift Club but the Sis are not on-line. Anyway he specifically stated the RSS so I assume he meant they were quoting that unless he says otherwise.

Also, A club cannot modify 'just about any rule it wishes'. In fact its a rather narrow range. You cannot modify:

ANY PART OF:
Part 1 - Fundamental Rules (1-5)
Part 2 - When Boats Meet (10-24)
Part 7 - Race Organization (85-91)

Or individual rules:
42 - Propulsion
43 - Competitor Clothing
69 - Gross misconduct
70 - Appeals
71 - National Authority Decisions
75 - Entering a race
76 - Exclusion of boats
79 - Classification
80 - Advertising

This is all part of Rule 86, which is happily part of (unmodifiable) Section 7!

Jackdaw · Feb 9, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
Well, I disagree as there is no inherent obligation to even apply the published RRS in a club race at all; or to even use PHRF handicaps, etc. I've seen club races where one rule was that one boat crew had to hit another with a water balloon, or similar nonsense, to even "finish."

I can guarantee you that those races are NOT conducted under the racing rules of sailing. Which is what this thread is about; agreed?

JohnVTX · Feb 9, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
Well, I disagree as there is no inherent obligation to even apply the published RRS in a club race at all; or to even use PHRF handicaps, etc. I've seen club races where one rule was that one boat crew had to hit another with a water balloon, or similar nonsense, to even "finish." All club races do not have to be "open" to all comers, etc.

86
CHANGES TO THE RACING RULES
86.1
A racing rule shall not be changed unless permitted in the rule itself or as follows:

Prescriptions of a national authority may change a racing rule, but not the Definitions; a rule in the Introduction; Sportsmanship and the Rules; Part 1, 2 or 7; rule Rule: 42" data-url="/rules/70?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">42, Rule: 43" data-url="/rules/74?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">43, Rule: 69" data-url="/rules/138?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">69,Rule: 70" data-url="/rules/143?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">70, Rule: 71" data-url="/rules/150?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">71, Rule: 75" data-url="/rules/155?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">75, Rule: 76.3" data-url="/rules/161?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">76.3, Rule: 79" data-url="/rules/167?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">79 or Rule: 80" data-url="/rules/168?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">80; a rule of an appendix that changes one of these rules; Appendix H or N; or ISAF Regulation 19, 20, 21 or 22.
Sailing instructions may change a racing rule by referring specifically to it and stating the change, but not rules Rule: 76.1" data-url="/rules/159?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">76.1 or Rule: 76.2" data-url="/rules/160?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">76.2, Appendix R, or a rule listed in rule 86.1(a).
Class rules may change only racing rules Rule: 42" data-url="/rules/70?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">42, Rule: 49" data-url="/rules/89?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">49, Rule: 50" data-url="/rules/92?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">50, Rule: 51" data-url="/rules/97?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">51, Rule: 52" data-url="/rules/98?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">52, Rule: 53" data-url="/rules/99?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">53 and Rule: 54" data-url="/rules/100?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">54. Such changes shall refer specifically to the rule and state the change.

86.2
In exception to rule Rule: 86.1" data-url="/rules/171?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">86.1, the ISAF may in limited circumstances (see ISAF Regulation 28.1.3) authorize changes to the racing rules for a specific international event. The authorization shall be stated in a letter of approval to the event organizing authority and in the notice of race and sailing instructions, and the letter shall be posted on the event’s official notice board.

86.3
If a national authority so prescribes, the restrictions in rule Rule: 86.1" data-url="/rules/171?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(66, 139, 202); background: transparent;">86.1 do not apply if rules are changed to develop or test proposed rules. The national authority may prescribe that its approval is Required for such changes.

87
CHANGES TO CLASS RULES

The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class association for the change is displayed on the official notice board.

JohnVTX · Feb 9, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
I'm not 100% sure what it is about. It's evidently about more than one thing. If the OP wants to use the RSS as his sole source of rules running the races of his club, then yeah--it's about whether or not there is a rule in there about reefing, which I think we all agree, that there is not. If it's about the rules traditionally applied by his yacht club to running particular races or set of races open to his own members, then I think they can stipulate the reefing rule so discussed. I'm not talking about area-wide (inter-club) PHRF races where his club acts as the general organizational authority. I'm talking about club races for club members only.

He states it in his second sentence "we do work to follow the rules as published by US Sailing.". By the way it is RRS

Jackdaw · Feb 9, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
I'm not 100% sure what it is about. It's evidently about more than one thing. If the OP wants to use the RSS as his sole source of rules running the races of his club,

Well crap, That's what he said it was about. Then you carried it forward when you said: Normally, RCs follow the RRS so as not to have to write all the rules themselves and so state in the SIs that those rules will be applied.

I don't get why you had to get all preachy and wag your finger at him. I absolutely applaud anyone that takes on volunteer Race Committee work. Its a thankless task that should be rewarded, not scolded.

uncledom · Feb 9, 2016

HBYRA has a very wierd rule that we actually use with the new to us boat. If a boat is PHRF'd with a spinnaker and does not use it for the whole race season, they get an 18 second per mile handicap. If you pull it out one time, your whole season is recalculated. Strange.

Davidasailor26 · Feb 9, 2016

I agree with Jackdaw. If you're sailing purely to the RRS then there's nothing that prohibits reefing or shaking out a reef. If you're modifying the RRS or coming up with your own rules from scratch, then there should be written sailing instructions with each prohibition. If the people who want sail changes restricted can't point to a SI that prohibits the changes, then they have nothing to stand on. I'd also point out to those people that having such a rule written would be a safety concern, possibly compelling competitors to carry more sail than they're comfortable with, which is not valuable to the sport.

uncledom · Feb 9, 2016

Larry we probably reef three times a season, depending of couse on wind strength and always shake it out on the down wind leg.

JohnVTX · Feb 9, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
I understand that, but I'm telling you those rules can be modified in an SI for a particular race. This discussion is now which rules and to what extent, and in what circumstances.

Well the rules themselves say you can't, if you are going to use them. He said they use them.

Jackdaw · Feb 9, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
Your wig needs adjusting; it's looking a little lopsided.

Yea maybe. But I do have being right on my side. That counts for something.

Stu Jackson · Feb 9, 2016

Unless there IS something IN WRITING that discusses this unusual reefing issue, the OP is to be both congratulated in undertaking this role and in questioning this unusual reefing issue.

That said, I think we've all learned that one gets more with honey than vinegar.

While the "Show me" approach makes sense, how it is implemented on a personal basis with the "old geezers" could make all the difference.

"I would appreciate it very much if you could point out to me just where it says this," may be a warmer opening than say throwing down the rule book and shouting (not saying he's gonna do this, mind you) "Show me."

Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

That said, the no reefing concept is so foreign to me, and so out of whack with safety that it sure sounds weird.

Good luck.

Jackdaw · Feb 9, 2016

Stu,
Good points... but I'm guessing RKL would asked in a way that would show a basic level of human respect. ;^)

But to me the strange part is why they (the anti-reefers) did not just quote their section of their SIs in reference to the reefing question. Q.E.D.

It IS possible that they have no SIs, or they are hopelessly out of date. Hopefully RKL will fill us in.

As to SIs and NORs in general, every spring we have a team dinner party and then read the new version together. Redline the deltas for the last year. Everyone here at SBO that knows me knows our boats are chock-full of rule-mavens. We have never lost a protest that has gone to the room. We simply know the rules. And I can present a pretty good argument.

Parsons · Feb 9, 2016

This seems more about "seniors" at a particular club, rather than a Rules discussion. Like anyone used to being in charge or winning, they don't want to rock the boat. If my crew and I were a bit older (these days that's counted in seasons, not decades!), I would not want to put in or shake a reef mid-race either. I'd make it a local rule that if you can't predict the wind as well as someone with 20 years on the lake, you just won't be able to compete with us. As in all competitions (racing, business, politics, etc.) when the old guys are making rules, their first consideration is "how will this keep me on top?"

Jackdaw · Feb 9, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
Just for the sake of continued (good faith) argument, I'd like someone to take a look at the attached sailing packet for the PSSA 2016 winter races (p. 6 Rules). I don't have time to chase down every set of SIs in Southern California, but the first few pages of this one establishes my earlier points, I think.

OK I'll bite. I guess we know what you've been doing for the last 2 hours! ;^)

No it does not. Really. Your points was A club can have just about any rules it wishes for the boats in its race. I disagreed. Still do. If this is good as you've found I'd keep looking.

This particular issue is very well known to the ISAF and USsailing ... indeed our fleet is working with them on a resolution. The issue is how to keep boats safe while racing at night. The RSS has no provisions for different rules while sailing at night.The ISAF and USSailing have not seen a reason to change language... yet. Some fleets are thinking about (or do!) reverting to COLREGS at night. But the big problem is trying to do something that the rules prohibit. Did you notice it does not have the required 'this changes rule X.X' language? per 86(b)?? Well they didn't because the problem of 86(b) saying you can't change anything in Section 2! So they didn't have the guts to say this rule replaces Rule#17. Or is it 11 and/or 12??. But only when the sun goes down. Is that GPS sundown? Or when I say so? What if my tall guy standing on the boom can still see rays? If it's dark and I'm overtaking you, how do I know how long YOU are? Interesting, that 'rule' is in the so-called 'Sailing Packet', but NOT in the well defined 'Sailing Instructions' section later in the document. 86(b) says changes MUST be in the SIs. ISAF and USsailing HATE when clubs do this and hate when they have to deal with an appeal.