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Racing Hunters in March in Texas

Jan 22, 2008
637
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
Way past January, so I started a new thread. The same Hunter 34 that won last week repeated on Sunday. Winds we're gusting over 30 knots on Galveston Bay and only four boats came out for the race, so not a lot of close action on the video.
I'm a little concerned about the flex in the forestay you can see from the sprit cam I rigged. Not sure if it's exaggerated from the wide angle lens or if a B&R without a backstay is meant to give that much in higher winds. Had the shrouds and diagonals checked and adjusted by pros just a couple months ago. We had 2 reefs in the main, the 34 only had one.

I let loose sheets hang over the companionway edges down into the cabin. A knot on the end of a jib sheet got caught under and behind the quarter berth door and pulled it off the bulkhead by the hinges and trim on the last leg. The trim was held on by three finish nails and a few drops of glue and pulled off with no damage. If it had been securely mounted, the door would have probably pulled apart at the rails and stiles and been unsalvageable. Should be an easy fix, trying to decide how secure to make it this time, same as before or add some screws and epoxy.

IMG_8131.JPG
 
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Ted

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Jan 26, 2005
1,177
C&C 110 Bay Shore, Long Island, NY
It really looks like you have an excessive amount of headstay sag. You're right to be concerned because you don't want that much sag in those conditions. Also the shock loading on the rig can be damaging and dangerous. Just curious, do you have any video of your mast? Was it pumping a lot? If the mast wasn't pumping then either your headstay should be tightened or your boat is flexing considerably. The section of video around the 4:40 to 4:55 mark makes me believe that the sag is not exaggerated from the wide angle lens. Fun race!
 

PaulK

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Dec 1, 2009
474
Tillotson Pearson J/36 Southport, CT
Two reefs in the main could have reduced the effect of the vang on tightening the forestay. If you can’t tighten the forestay enough and want to keep racing in heavy breezes, it might be worth looking into running backs that you could leave up by the mast if they weren’t needed, and put tackles on to your stern quarters when they were. It doesn’t appear you get into too many tacking duels, so handling them might not be too big a hurdle to add to your crew’s - or your - “to do” list.
 
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Likes: Bill19233
Apr 5, 2009
1,129
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
I agree with PaulK about the double reef being part of the problem. My understanding of the B&R rig is that they should never sailed jib only because much of the support for the forestay comes from the main sail. With a double reef and full jib you were getting a lot of tension on the forestay but not getting the support from the main due to the reduced height and area caused by reef. It would probably be better to roll up some jib and only single reef to keep them more in balance.
 
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Likes: Bill19233
Jan 22, 2008
637
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
Two reefs in the main could have reduced the effect of the vang on tightening the forestay. If you can’t tighten the forestay enough and want to keep racing in heavy breezes, it might be worth looking into running backs that you could leave up by the mast if they weren’t needed, and put tackles on to your stern quarters when they were. It doesn’t appear you get into too many tacking duels, so handling them might not be too big a hurdle to add to your crew’s - or your - “to do” list.
There's an old thread about adding runners to a B&R, it's a pretty highly engineered system to be adding something that changes load patterns. But, probably no worse than sailing in 30knots with a loose forestay. If anyone has talked to a Selden engineer about it or has done it, please share.

I do see that two reefs could keep the vang and mainsheet from helping to keep the forestay tight. But, the boat was balancing very well on the reaches, only one round up. One reef and partial jib could have been way too much weather helm on the reaching legs. I have a 4:1 on the topping lift, but it's up at the mast. There would be a lot of adjusting between it and the mainsheet and vang, a lot.

The answer, really, is to stay at the dock when it's blowing 30 knots. But, damn that was fun.
 
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Likes: kloudie1
Sep 22, 2018
1,342
Hunter 216 Kingston
I'm a little concerned about the flex in the forestay you can see from the sprit cam I rigged.
Great video as always. Like the new sprit cam! I would offer a suggestion, The next time out in big air like that and of course when your not racing try completely furling the headsail when your reaching and compare the sag amount with what happened in the video. It looked to me that around 5 min into the video that each time your bow went into a wave the sag increased substantially. Probably need to sort out a solution as it looks like your not the type to stay home when it’s blowing ;)
 
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Likes: Bill19233
Sep 22, 2018
1,342
Hunter 216 Kingston
I had another diagnostic idea. When you fly your asym and have the main loaded up does the furled up headsail sag a lot?
 
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Likes: Bill19233
Jan 22, 2008
637
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
I had another diagnostic idea. When you fly your asym and have the main loaded up does the furled up headsail sag a lot?
I was thinking the same thing. Already have a couple crew lined up for next Sunday and hope conditions will let me fly the asym. I may rig a camera to look up the forestay.
And Ted, I have considered the boat is flexing and that’s a scary thought. I am going to try to get video and images of the standing rigging from a lot of angles in the next few races and try to figure this out better.
Thinking more about runners. There are probably hundreds of B&R rigs out there far out of spec tension on diagonals and others with asyms pulling sideways that the little twisting and aft force a runner applies is not that big of deal, might even stabilize it. But, the thought of the 16’ boom slamming into a taut runner.
 
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Likes: Hunter216
Sep 22, 2018
1,342
Hunter 216 Kingston
I was thinking the same thing. Already have a couple crew lined up for next Sunday and hope conditions will let me fly the asym. I may rig a camera to look up the forestay.
And Ted, I have considered the boat is flexing and that’s a scary thought. I am going to try to get video and images of the standing rigging from a lot of angles in the next few races and try to figure this out better.
Thinking more about runners. There are probably hundreds of B&R rigs out there far out of spec tension on diagonals and others with asyms pulling sideways that the little twisting and aft force a runner applies is not that big of deal, might even stabilize it. But, the thought of the 16’ boom slamming into a taut runner.
Well there is the thing about sailing a boat outside it’s design limits ;)

Another 216 owner had posted a thread about installing running backstays as he wanted to fly a big spin and was concerned about the mast inverting His plan was to only use one at a time and switch over when the boom moved over.
He also considered a flicker and a permanent backstay.


Getting some video of what is happening is right up your alley. I’m sure you will sort it out.
 
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PaulK

.
Dec 1, 2009
474
Tillotson Pearson J/36 Southport, CT
Thinking more about runners. There are probably hundreds of B&R rigs out there far out of spec tension on diagonals and others with asyms pulling sideways that the little twisting and aft force a runner applies is not that big of deal, might even stabilize it. But, the thought of the 16’ boom slamming into a taut runner.
Our runners are wire, and they hang down by the gooseneck when they’re not rigged. They have thimbled eyes on the ends. We have a 4:1 tackle with snap shackles and a cam cleat that we run to padeyes on the quarters to set them up. We rig them generally when it’s blowing more than 25 knots; our mast is relatively hefty. Note that the tackle is set up with the cam on the bottom, so that you can pull UP on it. People can pull up with more force than they can pull down, since down force is limited by one’s weight. The windward runner is snugged up for it to work - it doesn’t need to be winched bar tight. Releasing it calls for flicking it out of the cam, and then you pull in the other one if you’ve tacked. The boom will be in tight on either tack going upwind , so will have no opportunity to slam into the runner. The traveler would also have to be really loose for the boom to be that far out. If you’re gybing, you release the runner before or when you gybe. Not really much of a problem.
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,342
Hunter 216 Kingston
An old thread on pre-bend that might help re reference photos.

 
Sep 22, 2018
1,342
Hunter 216 Kingston
Our runners are wire, and they hang down by the gooseneck when they’re not rigged. They have thimbled eyes on the ends. We have a 4:1 tackle with snap shackles and a cam cleat that we run to padeyes on the quarters to set them up. We rig them generally when it’s blowing more than 25 knots; our mast is relatively hefty. Note that the tackle is set up with the cam on the bottom, so that you can pull UP on it. People can pull up with more force than they can pull down, since down force is limited by one’s weight. The windward runner is snugged up for it to work - it doesn’t need to be winched bar tight. Releasing it calls for flicking it out of the cam, and then you pull in the other one if you’ve tacked. The boom will be in tight on either tack going upwind , so will have no opportunity to slam into the runner. The traveler would also have to be really loose for the boom to be that far out. If you’re gybing, you release the runner before or when you gybe. Not really much of a problem.
I like the cam cleat approach. Easy to bring the support into tension and really quick to release if necessary.

Can you provide detail on the location and method of attachment to the mast?

Is there a specific reason you chose to use wire instead of a non-stretch synthetic rope?
 

PaulK

.
Dec 1, 2009
474
Tillotson Pearson J/36 Southport, CT
I like the cam cleat approach. Easy to bring the support into tension and really quick to release if necessary.

Can you provide detail on the location and method of attachment to the mast?

Is there a specific reason you chose to use wire instead of a non-stretch synthetic rope?
I believe there’s a swaged T-terminal or something similar at the top, on the after sides of the mast at the height of the forestay. There are likely reinforcing/backing plates around the holes. It’s about 30’ up so can’t be more specific at the moment. T Terminal Swage
The 1981 boat came with this wire setup and we haven’t needed to change it. If it ain’t broke...
 
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Likes: Hunter216
Oct 19, 2017
6,312
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I do see that two reefs could keep the vang and mainsheet from helping to keep the forestay tight.
Perhaps, with a reefed main, the topping lift can be disconnected and repurposed to a preventer block and tackle to use as an adjustable backstay. Just a thought.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,342
Hunter 216 Kingston
I believe there’s a swaged T-terminal or something similar at the top, on the after sides of the mast at the height of the forestay. There are likely reinforcing/backing plates around the holes. It’s about 30’ up so can’t be more specific at the moment. T Terminal Swage
The 1981 boat came with this wire setup and we haven’t needed to change it. If it ain’t broke...
Thanks. I’m considering adding something to our 216 so it helps to have info on existing setups, like the cam cleat.

On the 216 with it’s big main and the fact that I really like the asym there are times I get kind of nervous without a backstay ;)