r we being PULLED or PUSHED??

Feb 18, 2022
440
Catalina 36 Port Orchard
Always pushing. Air cannot pull.
Watch the launch of a Saturn V rocket. At the base of the launch pad the smoke from the initial ignition is pulled into the flame trench by the engine exhaust at full thrust. If you watch the motion of the smoke, it clearly shows it being pulled from the bottom up. So depending on circumstances air can pull.
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,848
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
are our sails or airfoils pulling us along or pushing us along??
I was taught that the sails, on any tack other than a run, pushed the boat down in the water and the boyancy and shape of the hull pushes the boat in the desired direction. Most however, blame it all on the Bernoulli Effect. :)
 

Tater

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Oct 26, 2021
198
Hunter 170 Lake Logan Martin AL
Also an interesting engineering question. The aircraft I worked with in the Air Force would convert from a jet turbine at speed and altitude to a ramjet. The engineers would say the turbine supplied 15% of the thrust, and the inlet of the engine supplied the other 85%. I just nodded, and said, yeah but that afterburner is awfully loud.
The AF taught the pressure method in the 70s. Most recently, they go with Newton and simply say that a mass is accelerated rearward. This was the teaching of the Civil Air Patrol. I think both are correct but the point was standardization.

This is much like the physics of a prop. Does it force a mass rearward or pull itself forward relying of the inertia of the water. I really don't care so long as the motor starts on the first or second pull on the rope.;)
 

gudiss

.
Jul 19, 2016
30
hunter h260 ocean city nj
Is a plane pulled up or pushed up? IMHO I'd say pulled up against the force of gravity. On any point of sail except a run or very broad reach the sail acts like a wing. The boat, fuselage, is being pulled forward against the counter force of the keel, gravity, which makes it go forward instead of sideways. If my analogy is incorrect, please do not hesitate to correct me. I am not a pilot but I think I have at least a rudimentary understanding of the physics at play. At least enough to be dangerous.
hi roland
are u insinuating that the air flowing over the wing of a boeing 747 is lifting that babe off the ground??
 
May 12, 2004
1,505
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
hi roland
are u insinuating that the air flowing over the wing of a boeing 747 is lifting that babe off the ground??
The air flowing over the top of the wing has a longer distance to travel in the same amount of time then the air under the wing does. This results in lower pressure over the top of the wing. Since nature abhors a vacuum and is always trying to even things out, is the higher air pressure below the wing trying to push its way into the lower pressure or is the lower pressure trying to pull the higher pressure in? What say all you aviators out there.
 
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Tedd

.
Jul 25, 2013
752
TES 246 Versus near Vancouver, BC
Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of our language.
--Wittgenstein
It's useful to understand how the sail's behaviour changes depending on how it is presented to the wind, and we can usefully divide that behaviour into what we call "lift" and what we call "drag." But the distinction between "pushed" and "pulled" is arbitrary semantics.
 

Tater

.
Oct 26, 2021
198
Hunter 170 Lake Logan Martin AL
The air flowing over the top of the wing has a longer distance to travel in the same amount of time then the air under the wing does. This results in lower pressure over the top of the wing. Since nature abhors a vacuum and is always trying to even things out, is the higher air pressure below the wing trying to push its way into the lower pressure or is the lower pressure trying to pull the higher pressure in? What say all you aviators out there.
If you want a headache, here is a good read on the subject. Bernoulli is to blame in any event.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle
 

Tater

.
Oct 26, 2021
198
Hunter 170 Lake Logan Martin AL
It's useful to understand how the sail's behaviour changes depending on how it is presented to the wind, and we can usefully divide that behaviour into what we call "lift" and what we call "drag." But the distinction between "pushed" and "pulled" is arbitrary semantics.
All I know is on a small boat, if a strong gust comes and you can't change the attitude of the mainsail you are going to get wet.:banghead:
 
Sep 13, 2019
1
Chrysler 15 Lake O' the Pines
The easiest way to look at it is using Newton's laws. For every force the is an equal and opposite force. Your sails are redirecting the wind to the aft and that causes a forward force. The better the set of your sail the more air you redirect backwards. The keel or centerboard is necessary resistance to keep you from going sideways.
 
Jul 6, 2013
223
Catalina 30TR, Atomic 4 2480 Milwaukee
hi roland
are u insinuating that the air flowing over the wing of a boeing 747 is lifting that babe off the ground??
That is exactly how it works. The speed provided by the engines produces a great enough differential between the low pressure above the wing and the higher pressure beneath the wing to lift the plane. The air movement over the wings (in sailing terms, “apparent wind“) neither pushes nor pulls, but rather the pressure differential moves the wing (or sail) from high pressure to low pressure according to Bernoulli’s statement that “nature abhors a vacuum.”
 
Oct 1, 2007
1,865
Boston Whaler Super Sport Pt. Judith
The reality is each sail is an airfoil. So air flowing over the airfoil produces lift and drag forces. The orientation of the airfoil with respect to the air flow determines the relative magnitude of the lift and drag components, and their directions. So if one looks down from above on a jib and considers the lift and drag forces, the lift force will have a component pointing ahead and a component pointing perpendicular to the airfoil, which is the force causing the boat to heel. Then the drag force points aft and tends to slow the boat. The spinnaker is just another airfoil. So on a reach the spinnaker exhibits force vectors similar, but different relative magnitude, to the jib. Now with the wind astern, the spinnaker lift force pushes downwind on the spinnaker, and the drag force points astern. The spinnaker speed through the air is less than the airspeed dead downwind, so there is drag. It's pretty much the same whether the sail is a jib or a spinnaker, downwind or upwind. Bernoulli's equation, lift and drag. All the same.
 
Jul 6, 2013
223
Catalina 30TR, Atomic 4 2480 Milwaukee
More food for thought - Someone suspended by a parachute falls slower than gravity would otherwise suggest. Is that because the person is being pulled up or pushed up? Is the parachute itself being pushed up or pulled up by the air?
That’s a different situation. The air under the parachute must be displaced, and the resistance to displacement produces a vector opposite in direction to the force of gravity. Sometimes a parachuter moves upward!
 
Jul 6, 2013
223
Catalina 30TR, Atomic 4 2480 Milwaukee
The easiest way to look at it is using Newton's laws. For every force the is an equal and opposite force. Your sails are redirecting the wind to the aft and that causes a forward force. The better the set of your sail the more air you redirect backwards. The keel or centerboard is necessary resistance to keep you from going sideways.
That‘s a very practical way to think about it, but it’s actually Bernoulli’s law that is in effect.