Mates; The sailing season is about to get into full swing in most areas of the US and I thought I'd take a different tack. Instead of rambling on with a topic that may not be of interest to everyone, I thought I'd just throw it open to any items that are of interest to beginners to intermediates. There are only 4 items to contend with concerning sail trim. They are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. I call these items "The Four Elements Of Sail Trim". If you understand these terms you are almost home from a sail trim standpoint. Next, you have to know how your sail trim controls effect these items. The sail trim controls for the mainsail that control the 4 elements are the traveler, mainsheet, halyard, outhaul, cunningham, boom vang, mast bend and leech cord. The sail trim controls that control the 4 elements for the jib are the jib sheets, halyard fairleads (forward and aft), fairleads (iinboard and outboard) and headstay sag. Another important element is your telltails. They are the primary system of checks and balance for the mainsail and jib trimmer. The above is the complete story of sail trim. If you understand how all these items interact your all the way home from a sail trim standpoint. Anyone have any specific questions on any of the above??
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
M
Mark Burrows
Tracks for the jib/genoa lead
On the boat that I crew for racing, there is an inside track and an outside track for the jib/genoa. My skipper is not always instructive so I am left with the question "when should these track be used?" Why don't most boats have 2 different tracks? Markdb
On the boat that I crew for racing, there is an inside track and an outside track for the jib/genoa. My skipper is not always instructive so I am left with the question "when should these track be used?" Why don't most boats have 2 different tracks? Markdb
S
Scott Mathey
Thank You
Don, as a busy person I can appreciate just about anything in a condensed get "right to the fact" version. Every so often on the H O W I run across just that. I am busy with remodeling the house to sell it in preperation to move to the Southern Oregon Coast. Can't wait, can't sail until then. So many times in reading about sail trim and other topics related to this, it has been over explained and there for, over complicated. Take Care
Don, as a busy person I can appreciate just about anything in a condensed get "right to the fact" version. Every so often on the H O W I run across just that. I am busy with remodeling the house to sell it in preperation to move to the Southern Oregon Coast. Can't wait, can't sail until then. So many times in reading about sail trim and other topics related to this, it has been over explained and there for, over complicated. Take Care
T
Timm Miller
Rigid Vang
I put one in a while back that went unanswered so I'll try again........I have a Garhauer Rigid Vang and no traveler.........should I set the twist with the vang for the day and use the mainsheet to control angle of attack only?
I put one in a while back that went unanswered so I'll try again........I have a Garhauer Rigid Vang and no traveler.........should I set the twist with the vang for the day and use the mainsheet to control angle of attack only?
R
Robert B.
Genoa tracks II
I like Mark's question about inside and outside tracks. Also, when should you adjust the tracks forward and aft? Under what conditions?
I like Mark's question about inside and outside tracks. Also, when should you adjust the tracks forward and aft? Under what conditions?
M
Mark Burrows
I can answer fwd and bkwd
The leads are moveed forward and backwards to adjust that angle of the sheet to the sail. The sheet is suppose to bisect that corner of the sail. That angle changes if the sail size changes (110%, 130%, etc). It sort of changes with the boats point of sail also. Upwind you are sheeting in so the angle may be steeper than when the sail is out going downwind. Agreed? Markdb
The leads are moveed forward and backwards to adjust that angle of the sheet to the sail. The sheet is suppose to bisect that corner of the sail. That angle changes if the sail size changes (110%, 130%, etc). It sort of changes with the boats point of sail also. Upwind you are sheeting in so the angle may be steeper than when the sail is out going downwind. Agreed? Markdb
R
Robert B.
Upwind = move the leads aft?
Mark, So you are saying to move the leads aft the more upwind I am sailing? I think this makes sense. I'll have to see it in action to get it straight in my mind. Thanks for the input.
Mark, So you are saying to move the leads aft the more upwind I am sailing? I think this makes sense. I'll have to see it in action to get it straight in my mind. Thanks for the input.
M
Michael O'
Tracks and Draft
Think of moving the jib blocks forward and aft in relation to sail draft. In light air, move the blocks forward to increase the draft; in heavy air move the blocks back to decrease the draft. Here's a hands-on test for you: put the starboard block forward about two feet more than the port block, and go sailing. In any wind, you'll definitely see the difference in boat speed and heel! And a lesson quickly learned! As for the interior track, use it when your sheeting angle brings the sail inboard of the lifelines. Basically. Really, really sheeting in the genoa tight? Use the inboard track then, too. Best bet is to read the "New Book of Sail Trim", which is absolutely the best instruction I've read on sail trim! Fair Winds, Michael O'
Think of moving the jib blocks forward and aft in relation to sail draft. In light air, move the blocks forward to increase the draft; in heavy air move the blocks back to decrease the draft. Here's a hands-on test for you: put the starboard block forward about two feet more than the port block, and go sailing. In any wind, you'll definitely see the difference in boat speed and heel! And a lesson quickly learned! As for the interior track, use it when your sheeting angle brings the sail inboard of the lifelines. Basically. Really, really sheeting in the genoa tight? Use the inboard track then, too. Best bet is to read the "New Book of Sail Trim", which is absolutely the best instruction I've read on sail trim! Fair Winds, Michael O'
D
Don Guillette
Questions
Scott Mathey: Yup, I agree with the over explanations. When I first got into the theory of sail trim, I talked to tons of guys and they all confused me with their explanations. They mixed up the definitions and in a lot of cases, it turned out they did not know what they were talking about. I asked them about apples and they told me about oranges!! In my book I state, "Sail trim is an acquired art and simple to learn and understand when it is presented in an easy to understand fashion". I feel I've covered every aspect of sail trim in the 65 pages of my book.
Scott Mathey: Yup, I agree with the over explanations. When I first got into the theory of sail trim, I talked to tons of guys and they all confused me with their explanations. They mixed up the definitions and in a lot of cases, it turned out they did not know what they were talking about. I asked them about apples and they told me about oranges!! In my book I state, "Sail trim is an acquired art and simple to learn and understand when it is presented in an easy to understand fashion". I feel I've covered every aspect of sail trim in the 65 pages of my book.
D
Don Guillette
Questions
Mark Burrows: A lot of skippers arn't instructive. I hear them say "adjust the outhaul". They don't say which way or how much and additionally they don't mention any adjustment to the other mainsail controls. The outhaul only controls the bottom 2/3 of the sail. I follow the instuction but I do wonder what the skipper had in mind when he requested that change. Most production boats only have one track due to production cost factors. It's cheaper to only install 1 track. I wish we had the opprtunity to discuss draft position, draft depth, twist and angle of attack in depth because the fairlead placement explantion would be easier to understand. The inboard and outboard tracks affect sail angle and to a lesser extent, twist. When sailing closehauled, you want to use the inboard tracks. This placement allows you to point higher. It also gives you a better angle of attack. Generally, the outboard track is used for all other points of sail. In very light wind, you should use the outboard track because that placement decreases the angle of attack and prevents the slot from being clogged. In heavy air, you also want the outside track because it opens up the slot for more speed and reduced heeling. My book "The Sail Trim Users Guide" devotes about 5 pages to the complete subject of fairlead placement.
Mark Burrows: A lot of skippers arn't instructive. I hear them say "adjust the outhaul". They don't say which way or how much and additionally they don't mention any adjustment to the other mainsail controls. The outhaul only controls the bottom 2/3 of the sail. I follow the instuction but I do wonder what the skipper had in mind when he requested that change. Most production boats only have one track due to production cost factors. It's cheaper to only install 1 track. I wish we had the opprtunity to discuss draft position, draft depth, twist and angle of attack in depth because the fairlead placement explantion would be easier to understand. The inboard and outboard tracks affect sail angle and to a lesser extent, twist. When sailing closehauled, you want to use the inboard tracks. This placement allows you to point higher. It also gives you a better angle of attack. Generally, the outboard track is used for all other points of sail. In very light wind, you should use the outboard track because that placement decreases the angle of attack and prevents the slot from being clogged. In heavy air, you also want the outside track because it opens up the slot for more speed and reduced heeling. My book "The Sail Trim Users Guide" devotes about 5 pages to the complete subject of fairlead placement.
D
Don Guillette
Questions
Robert B: As I mentioned in a previous message, I wish I had the opportunity to explain Draft Depth, Draft Position, Twist and angle Of Attack. Once you understand these terms your miles ahead of 75% of the sailors worldwide. Fairlead position affects all of the above 4 items. Draft Position - moving the fairlead forward moves the draft position aft and moving the fairlead aft moves the draft position forward. Draft Depth - Moving the fairlead forward increases the the draft depth and moving it aft decreases the draft depth. Twist - Moving the fiarlead forward decreases twist and moving it aft increases the twist. Angle Of Attack - The inboard track increases the angle of attack and the outboard track decreases the angel of attack. Where you position the fairlead depends on the point of sail and wind condition. My "Sail Trim Chart" displays all the controls for the main and jib and gives you the proper position.
Robert B: As I mentioned in a previous message, I wish I had the opportunity to explain Draft Depth, Draft Position, Twist and angle Of Attack. Once you understand these terms your miles ahead of 75% of the sailors worldwide. Fairlead position affects all of the above 4 items. Draft Position - moving the fairlead forward moves the draft position aft and moving the fairlead aft moves the draft position forward. Draft Depth - Moving the fairlead forward increases the the draft depth and moving it aft decreases the draft depth. Twist - Moving the fiarlead forward decreases twist and moving it aft increases the twist. Angle Of Attack - The inboard track increases the angle of attack and the outboard track decreases the angel of attack. Where you position the fairlead depends on the point of sail and wind condition. My "Sail Trim Chart" displays all the controls for the main and jib and gives you the proper position.
D
Don Guillette
Questions
Timm Miller: The traveler is a nice sail trim control to have but you can get along without it. The mainsail trim controls for TWIST are the boom vang and the mainsheet, both of which you have. Increasing tension on both of these controls reduces twist and decreasing tension increases twist. The sail trim controls for the ANGLE OF ATTACK are the mainsheet and traveler - one of which you have. Trim in and you increase the angle of attack and ease out and you decrease the angle of attack. Increasing the angle of attack powers up the boat. Angle of attack is hard to understand as the terms seem backwards. Maybe I should write an article on angle of attack, if anyone is interested. You almost have to see a diagram, which I provide in my book, to understand it. Once you see it, its easy to understand.
Timm Miller: The traveler is a nice sail trim control to have but you can get along without it. The mainsail trim controls for TWIST are the boom vang and the mainsheet, both of which you have. Increasing tension on both of these controls reduces twist and decreasing tension increases twist. The sail trim controls for the ANGLE OF ATTACK are the mainsheet and traveler - one of which you have. Trim in and you increase the angle of attack and ease out and you decrease the angle of attack. Increasing the angle of attack powers up the boat. Angle of attack is hard to understand as the terms seem backwards. Maybe I should write an article on angle of attack, if anyone is interested. You almost have to see a diagram, which I provide in my book, to understand it. Once you see it, its easy to understand.
M
Mark Burrows
Applying the inside/outside tracks
With regards to inside and outside tracks, it sounds like in a race situation you might switch to the inside track after you round a mark and head upwind if you have moderate wind. Similarly, you would switch to the outside track when you switch tacks coming off the wind and onto a reach. Right? Markdb PS. if you need a diagram, just draw it in your drawing program, save it as a .jpg, and post it with your article. Phil will help you if you need upload assistance. Markdb
With regards to inside and outside tracks, it sounds like in a race situation you might switch to the inside track after you round a mark and head upwind if you have moderate wind. Similarly, you would switch to the outside track when you switch tacks coming off the wind and onto a reach. Right? Markdb PS. if you need a diagram, just draw it in your drawing program, save it as a .jpg, and post it with your article. Phil will help you if you need upload assistance. Markdb
D
Don Guillette
Questions
Mark Burroows: Yup, your right. When ever you are sailing closehauled you want to be on the inside track. In my case, with a Catalina 30, I don't have the inside track so I use a barberhauler to get that advantage. I do have a cabin top track but the safety lines are in the way. I have a set of Garhauer snatch blocks, which would make this applications a snap, but I have to modify the safety lines in order to use it. Here is tip for sailing on a reach in moderate to heavy seas. Move the fairlead forward a bit and see what happens to your speed. It can increase your speed by almost 1 knot. You have to experiment with the position as all boats are different. This adjustment is a simple matter if you have a adjustableble fiarlead system such as one made by Garhauer. My last point is there is no such thing as racing trim and cruising trim. The only thing is that there is a right way and a wrong way to sail the boat so the adjustments I'm talking about apply whether you are a racer or a cruiser.
Mark Burroows: Yup, your right. When ever you are sailing closehauled you want to be on the inside track. In my case, with a Catalina 30, I don't have the inside track so I use a barberhauler to get that advantage. I do have a cabin top track but the safety lines are in the way. I have a set of Garhauer snatch blocks, which would make this applications a snap, but I have to modify the safety lines in order to use it. Here is tip for sailing on a reach in moderate to heavy seas. Move the fairlead forward a bit and see what happens to your speed. It can increase your speed by almost 1 knot. You have to experiment with the position as all boats are different. This adjustment is a simple matter if you have a adjustableble fiarlead system such as one made by Garhauer. My last point is there is no such thing as racing trim and cruising trim. The only thing is that there is a right way and a wrong way to sail the boat so the adjustments I'm talking about apply whether you are a racer or a cruiser.
T
Timm Miller
Makes sense
I found out this past weekend that, as you state, the mainsheet will overcome the vang tension.......so I can just take that out of the equation and only think about it on a reach or lower point of sail. Meaning that on a reach or higher I can just leave the control line out of the cam cleat and let the mainsheet do it's job.
I found out this past weekend that, as you state, the mainsheet will overcome the vang tension.......so I can just take that out of the equation and only think about it on a reach or lower point of sail. Meaning that on a reach or higher I can just leave the control line out of the cam cleat and let the mainsheet do it's job.
T
Timm Miller
Sheet Vanging
This may have been what I was looking for "sheet vanging" Thanks for everyones imput.......and Don, hows the road life treating you?
This may have been what I was looking for "sheet vanging" Thanks for everyones imput.......and Don, hows the road life treating you?
D
Don Guillette
Questions
Timm Miller: Thank you for taking the time to try out the principle. Sail tim is so controversial a subject when in reality it is very simple and almost mechanical. In other words, when you think of some of this stuff there are very few ways the mechanical force your exerting could have any other result. I always end my comments with the suggestion that mates should just go out and try the sequence I suggested. That's what I had to do when I was researching this stuff. Most ideas worked for me but some didn't. If they didn't wopk I just discarded them and moved on. My "road life", with my newly purchased motor home, is treating me pretty good. It is as relaxing as sailing. While on the road, I'm still drawned to places that have marinas. Our last trip was to Prescott and Sedona, AZ. I was going to come home on Route 40 through Flagstaff but it was snowing and I really hate snow, having lived most of my life in it, so we headed south to Phoenix and stumbled on a great lake outside of Phoenix called Lake Pleasant. The first thing I wanted to do was walk the docks but I coul not get in because they were locked. Fortunately for me a Catalina 25 owner noticed my Catalina 30 National Regatta T shirt (that shirt gets me into a lot of marinas) and took me through the gate. We had a great time on his boat and were going to go for a spin but there was no wind. Over the first part of June I'll be in Zion, Bryce Canyon and the north rim of the Grand Canyon. After that trip the MH is put away and my sailing season begins in earnest. I just retired recently so I have a lot of time to devote to either passion.
Timm Miller: Thank you for taking the time to try out the principle. Sail tim is so controversial a subject when in reality it is very simple and almost mechanical. In other words, when you think of some of this stuff there are very few ways the mechanical force your exerting could have any other result. I always end my comments with the suggestion that mates should just go out and try the sequence I suggested. That's what I had to do when I was researching this stuff. Most ideas worked for me but some didn't. If they didn't wopk I just discarded them and moved on. My "road life", with my newly purchased motor home, is treating me pretty good. It is as relaxing as sailing. While on the road, I'm still drawned to places that have marinas. Our last trip was to Prescott and Sedona, AZ. I was going to come home on Route 40 through Flagstaff but it was snowing and I really hate snow, having lived most of my life in it, so we headed south to Phoenix and stumbled on a great lake outside of Phoenix called Lake Pleasant. The first thing I wanted to do was walk the docks but I coul not get in because they were locked. Fortunately for me a Catalina 25 owner noticed my Catalina 30 National Regatta T shirt (that shirt gets me into a lot of marinas) and took me through the gate. We had a great time on his boat and were going to go for a spin but there was no wind. Over the first part of June I'll be in Zion, Bryce Canyon and the north rim of the Grand Canyon. After that trip the MH is put away and my sailing season begins in earnest. I just retired recently so I have a lot of time to devote to either passion.
T
Timm Miller
One last thing
Don, everytime I pick up your book I find one more thing to learn.......Going over some stuff the other day in your book, I was reading that you sail close hauled to set the twist for the day.......makes perfect sense, but does it apply to all points of sail that day or just closed hauled for that day?
Don, everytime I pick up your book I find one more thing to learn.......Going over some stuff the other day in your book, I was reading that you sail close hauled to set the twist for the day.......makes perfect sense, but does it apply to all points of sail that day or just closed hauled for that day?
D
Don Guillette
Questions
Timm: Actually, you set the twist and the other elements (draft depth, draft position and angle of attack)for the point of sail and for the wind condition you are experiencing. If anything changes such as your point of sail or the wind pipes up or dies down, you have to re-adjust. If your racing, your constantly adjusting.
Timm: Actually, you set the twist and the other elements (draft depth, draft position and angle of attack)for the point of sail and for the wind condition you are experiencing. If anything changes such as your point of sail or the wind pipes up or dies down, you have to re-adjust. If your racing, your constantly adjusting.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.