C-27 in Harm's Way . . .
Here's the answer . . . http://basicresearch.com/crown/bang.html Nick "Julia Bell" San Diego
Here's the answer . . . http://basicresearch.com/crown/bang.html Nick "Julia Bell" San Diego
- Status
Interesting responses
I would never carry a gun on my boat but I only sail the coast of British Columbia. I'm surprised by the number who do have guns. I don't know anyone who carries a gun and I don't know anyone under the age of 50 who even owns one (including me). I like it this way too. Paul
I would never carry a gun on my boat but I only sail the coast of British Columbia. I'm surprised by the number who do have guns. I don't know anyone who carries a gun and I don't know anyone under the age of 50 who even owns one (including me). I like it this way too. Paul
Gun Onboard
I like the bumper sticker: "Better To Have A Gun And Not Need It....Than Need A Gun And Not Have It!" The important thing here is if your going to "pack" a gun, take the time to learn how to handle it safely and shoot it effectively. A local Gun Club could be very helpful here. also, join the American Rifle Association (NRA), they are the most powerful group that is protecting YOUR Second Amendment rights. The "flare gun" is the poor man "equalizer", you can have one onboard without any permits
I like the bumper sticker: "Better To Have A Gun And Not Need It....Than Need A Gun And Not Have It!" The important thing here is if your going to "pack" a gun, take the time to learn how to handle it safely and shoot it effectively. A local Gun Club could be very helpful here. also, join the American Rifle Association (NRA), they are the most powerful group that is protecting YOUR Second Amendment rights. The "flare gun" is the poor man "equalizer", you can have one onboard without any permits
Then Again...
Okay, For starters, I'm a police officer. I have told several friends that if the police can't guarantee to be at their house within a minute or two, they might want to own, and learn to use, a gun. Why? Some towns have as few as 3-4 cops working for populations of 30,000, on the midnight shift. Sadly, truer than you think. If you have to protect yourself, fine. But be prepared to justify every action you take, and account for every round you fire. That's just my 2¢...
Okay, For starters, I'm a police officer. I have told several friends that if the police can't guarantee to be at their house within a minute or two, they might want to own, and learn to use, a gun. Why? Some towns have as few as 3-4 cops working for populations of 30,000, on the midnight shift. Sadly, truer than you think. If you have to protect yourself, fine. But be prepared to justify every action you take, and account for every round you fire. That's just my 2¢...
Its easy to say "Have A Gun"....But let me ask you
how many people die in house-holds each year due to "accidental discharge". It happens more than the NRA wants to say!. And sailors that think they need a firearm in the Bahama's Or Bermuda are "Nuts"!!!!!What Are you guys reading!!! If you were going to the Pacific Asia or Yemen or something like that, Then I would say it might be "prudent". But all this talk is ridiculous. Really!...I walk through NY City all the time and if it was upm to all you people I should carry....you are NUTS!!
how many people die in house-holds each year due to "accidental discharge". It happens more than the NRA wants to say!. And sailors that think they need a firearm in the Bahama's Or Bermuda are "Nuts"!!!!!What Are you guys reading!!! If you were going to the Pacific Asia or Yemen or something like that, Then I would say it might be "prudent". But all this talk is ridiculous. Really!...I walk through NY City all the time and if it was upm to all you people I should carry....you are NUTS!!
Arturo..
I can assure you that I am not nuts. I am educated (MA), level-headed, and sane the last time I checked. I take exception to your tyraid about gun owners being crazy (although I defend your right to say it). Such platitudes are way too simple to explain something as complex as ownership of a leathal weapon. Simply put, most people I know who own guns hope they will never have to use them defensively (or offensively, for that matter). However, there are times when they come in handy. You are probably a nice guy who wouldn't normally think of harming a fellow citizen. But I absolutely guarantee you that there are "bad" people out there, who don't care a lick for you or your life. If you haven't encountered them yet - great. I sincerely hope you never do. But the difference between me and you is that - confronted with two violent criminals in the same situation - I have an option that you do not, so my destiny is in my own hands. Yours is in the hands of your assailants. Essentially, there are people who have experienced violent crime first hand, and there are those who haven't. If you have, you pretty much vow to yourself not to be a victim again. If you haven't experienced violent crime, then you (understandably) don't understand the savagery some people are capable of, or the need to be sure that you can fend for yourself regardless of the circumstances. This is a great thread - a difficult one, but like all relevant social issues, one that should be discussed. Rob
I can assure you that I am not nuts. I am educated (MA), level-headed, and sane the last time I checked. I take exception to your tyraid about gun owners being crazy (although I defend your right to say it). Such platitudes are way too simple to explain something as complex as ownership of a leathal weapon. Simply put, most people I know who own guns hope they will never have to use them defensively (or offensively, for that matter). However, there are times when they come in handy. You are probably a nice guy who wouldn't normally think of harming a fellow citizen. But I absolutely guarantee you that there are "bad" people out there, who don't care a lick for you or your life. If you haven't encountered them yet - great. I sincerely hope you never do. But the difference between me and you is that - confronted with two violent criminals in the same situation - I have an option that you do not, so my destiny is in my own hands. Yours is in the hands of your assailants. Essentially, there are people who have experienced violent crime first hand, and there are those who haven't. If you have, you pretty much vow to yourself not to be a victim again. If you haven't experienced violent crime, then you (understandably) don't understand the savagery some people are capable of, or the need to be sure that you can fend for yourself regardless of the circumstances. This is a great thread - a difficult one, but like all relevant social issues, one that should be discussed. Rob
Mexico, and some alternatives
Here in Mexico, people have lost their boats due to carrying guns. It is not always a situation that can be remedied by mordida! That said, you do have some alternatives. In addition to your flare gun, or mace, I have always felt that a good shot with my blindingly bright spotlight (even during the day) might well do the trick, and I could probably buy a little time with a good blast of a little cannister airhorn, aimed in the right direction. On the dark side, I do have irrefutable personal knowledge of two SERIOUS piracy attacks, both about ten years ago. One was off the west coast of Baja, the victim was a Cheoy Lee 40, and the attacker a container ship...that is not a typo. It is a long story, but the ship approached in reverse from several miles away. If the victims had not had them on radar, they would not have known they were being approached, since the running lights on the ship made them look like they were going away (very clever). The big ship put two launches in the water, a chase ensued, eventually a Coast Guard Falcon jet showed up, etc. etc., and no one was ultimately hurt. I suppose the big ship wanted a sailboat, maybe for a drug drop. The DEA took a great interest in the case. My frineds now carry some hand made dynamite grenades (!!!), and never show lights. The other occasion was in Indonesia, and fortunately also ended up with no injuries, although it was a very near thing. Speaking for myself, I don't carry, and think it opens you up for way too much hassle (internationally, at least), but I understand those who do. I hope they have training, and I will probably be the one who brings them food and magazines while they languish in the care of some third world judicial system! My final thought is that incidents like I have mentioned are REALLY rare, and that cruising is one of the safest lifestyles one can practice, even without a gun. At least, outside the US!
Here in Mexico, people have lost their boats due to carrying guns. It is not always a situation that can be remedied by mordida! That said, you do have some alternatives. In addition to your flare gun, or mace, I have always felt that a good shot with my blindingly bright spotlight (even during the day) might well do the trick, and I could probably buy a little time with a good blast of a little cannister airhorn, aimed in the right direction. On the dark side, I do have irrefutable personal knowledge of two SERIOUS piracy attacks, both about ten years ago. One was off the west coast of Baja, the victim was a Cheoy Lee 40, and the attacker a container ship...that is not a typo. It is a long story, but the ship approached in reverse from several miles away. If the victims had not had them on radar, they would not have known they were being approached, since the running lights on the ship made them look like they were going away (very clever). The big ship put two launches in the water, a chase ensued, eventually a Coast Guard Falcon jet showed up, etc. etc., and no one was ultimately hurt. I suppose the big ship wanted a sailboat, maybe for a drug drop. The DEA took a great interest in the case. My frineds now carry some hand made dynamite grenades (!!!), and never show lights. The other occasion was in Indonesia, and fortunately also ended up with no injuries, although it was a very near thing. Speaking for myself, I don't carry, and think it opens you up for way too much hassle (internationally, at least), but I understand those who do. I hope they have training, and I will probably be the one who brings them food and magazines while they languish in the care of some third world judicial system! My final thought is that incidents like I have mentioned are REALLY rare, and that cruising is one of the safest lifestyles one can practice, even without a gun. At least, outside the US!
Rob.. yes I have been confronted before
.I live in Newark NJ!!...You want to see some things visit here! I have my Bachelors Degree in EE...doesn't mean a thing!.... I really don't think we need to go into this thread THIS IS A SAILING SITE. And no it is not a great thread! That is ridiculou, as someone pointed out earlier, he knew this thread was going to go down the wrong path. I am not suggesting that anyone takes away our right to bear arms in this country. But there are a lot of incredibly stupid people that carry them. That is a fact that can't be argued.
.I live in Newark NJ!!...You want to see some things visit here! I have my Bachelors Degree in EE...doesn't mean a thing!.... I really don't think we need to go into this thread THIS IS A SAILING SITE. And no it is not a great thread! That is ridiculou, as someone pointed out earlier, he knew this thread was going to go down the wrong path. I am not suggesting that anyone takes away our right to bear arms in this country. But there are a lot of incredibly stupid people that carry them. That is a fact that can't be argued.
Arturo Again...
Hey - this is a site that allows people to exchange information with other people about ideas, opinions, tehniques, and products relating to sailing. One common question is "What do you bring aboard?" Well, some people, like me, don't bring firearms aboard their boat. Some people do. Some people won't go out without a GPS - some like sextants and dead reckoning. The neat thing is that they can all discuss those topics and more on this site, and POSSIBLY learn something they didn't know - you know, keep their minds open to new things. They also often try to listen to people without shouting them down. If you don't like the thread, there are a bunch of other ones here that can keep you busy. Simply calling the thread or its contributors "ridiculous" just doesn't help anyone. Best Regards, Rob p.s. - I mentioned my background and education not to challenge you, just to let you know that I'm not some gun toting yayhoo who gets his opinions from talk radio shows
Go easy.
Hey - this is a site that allows people to exchange information with other people about ideas, opinions, tehniques, and products relating to sailing. One common question is "What do you bring aboard?" Well, some people, like me, don't bring firearms aboard their boat. Some people do. Some people won't go out without a GPS - some like sextants and dead reckoning. The neat thing is that they can all discuss those topics and more on this site, and POSSIBLY learn something they didn't know - you know, keep their minds open to new things. They also often try to listen to people without shouting them down. If you don't like the thread, there are a bunch of other ones here that can keep you busy. Simply calling the thread or its contributors "ridiculous" just doesn't help anyone. Best Regards, Rob p.s. - I mentioned my background and education not to challenge you, just to let you know that I'm not some gun toting yayhoo who gets his opinions from talk radio shows
Go easy.Arturo
I started this thread only to inquire what other experienced cruisers have to offer from their own cruising experiences for me to consider for what I hope to be a enjoyable upcomming extended cruise in non USA ports,and not to advocate that anyone carry a firearm if uncomfortable with the idea.I don't think it is a stupid thread. Perhaps it makes you uncomfortable ,in which case,change the channel. By the way , I grew up in Newark,N.J and attended Prep School there during the riots.I was stopped almost every day on my way to the bus stop after basketball practice and survived without predjudice or a feeling of someone always out to get me. I did learn what Rob is talking about first hand though- You cannot count on someone else saving you in a dangerous situation- there are times when you are your only defense. It seems to me that this would be particularly true when cruising alone. Also by the way I am an NRA member and you have been feed a lot of misinformation by HCI. I have also been a Firearms salesman for 16 years and am well aware of the foolishness of some people wanting to buy a firearm without taking the time to train or the tenacity to use it in time of need or learning the laws governing the use of deadly force. Hope that I am the pedestrian standing by you if your life is threatened some night on High Street or Broadway without a cop in sight. Mark
I started this thread only to inquire what other experienced cruisers have to offer from their own cruising experiences for me to consider for what I hope to be a enjoyable upcomming extended cruise in non USA ports,and not to advocate that anyone carry a firearm if uncomfortable with the idea.I don't think it is a stupid thread. Perhaps it makes you uncomfortable ,in which case,change the channel. By the way , I grew up in Newark,N.J and attended Prep School there during the riots.I was stopped almost every day on my way to the bus stop after basketball practice and survived without predjudice or a feeling of someone always out to get me. I did learn what Rob is talking about first hand though- You cannot count on someone else saving you in a dangerous situation- there are times when you are your only defense. It seems to me that this would be particularly true when cruising alone. Also by the way I am an NRA member and you have been feed a lot of misinformation by HCI. I have also been a Firearms salesman for 16 years and am well aware of the foolishness of some people wanting to buy a firearm without taking the time to train or the tenacity to use it in time of need or learning the laws governing the use of deadly force. Hope that I am the pedestrian standing by you if your life is threatened some night on High Street or Broadway without a cop in sight. Mark
AND having a Gun on board and using it
can KILL you sometimes......Just ask Sir Blake ! "Bandits opened fire after Blake reportedly shot his .308 rifle at the theives. Wounding one in the hand.....The skipper was hit twice: one of them struck him in the back and pierced his heart. He reportedly died instantly" So just like a lot of things.....life is a crap shoot....(sorry no pun intended).... It was also reported that had he not used a weapon he would most likely be alive today....(sans watches and other valuables).. So encouraging the thought that having a firearm on board will always save you is possibly giving false security. There are heavy risks going both ways. Oh, by the way, yes I do own firearms.I grew up with them and have always been part of my family. Now I go hunting once in a while....(No, no handguns and I never have a loaded weapon in the house). I am sorry to tell you the NRA puts out some false propaganda also....And NO I am not a left leaning, tree hugging liberal! BUT, I just think people should really realize the downsides to a certain position. It is too easy to say something and not position the downside, because in this case it might be deadly. And for the record, if I were to cruise certain areas of this world, I have not completely ruled out the chance of having a weapon on board (flare gun, spear gun, or regular firearm?). And I can even agree, there are a few times when it might be best. I recall reading a while back, that a cruiser carried a Stainless Steel Mossberg shotgun (I believe?). Whenever he was out in the open waters sailing and being approached by a suspicious vessel, he would just stand on his boat and pump the handle once. Just the un-mistakable sound of a pump shotgun going "Cha-Chung" would turn a boat away. But I think all of you, that should know better (16 years as a gun dealer?!) do a BIG disservice to others reading, by not balancing your obvious enthusiam with the brutal realities of gun ownership. It is not always the best thing and some less savvy dim-witted people might get the wrong ideas. (Hey I'm safe now ..I've got a gun!)....and those are EXACTLY the people that shouldn't possess a gun.
can KILL you sometimes......Just ask Sir Blake ! "Bandits opened fire after Blake reportedly shot his .308 rifle at the theives. Wounding one in the hand.....The skipper was hit twice: one of them struck him in the back and pierced his heart. He reportedly died instantly" So just like a lot of things.....life is a crap shoot....(sorry no pun intended).... It was also reported that had he not used a weapon he would most likely be alive today....(sans watches and other valuables).. So encouraging the thought that having a firearm on board will always save you is possibly giving false security. There are heavy risks going both ways. Oh, by the way, yes I do own firearms.I grew up with them and have always been part of my family. Now I go hunting once in a while....(No, no handguns and I never have a loaded weapon in the house). I am sorry to tell you the NRA puts out some false propaganda also....And NO I am not a left leaning, tree hugging liberal! BUT, I just think people should really realize the downsides to a certain position. It is too easy to say something and not position the downside, because in this case it might be deadly. And for the record, if I were to cruise certain areas of this world, I have not completely ruled out the chance of having a weapon on board (flare gun, spear gun, or regular firearm?). And I can even agree, there are a few times when it might be best. I recall reading a while back, that a cruiser carried a Stainless Steel Mossberg shotgun (I believe?). Whenever he was out in the open waters sailing and being approached by a suspicious vessel, he would just stand on his boat and pump the handle once. Just the un-mistakable sound of a pump shotgun going "Cha-Chung" would turn a boat away. But I think all of you, that should know better (16 years as a gun dealer?!) do a BIG disservice to others reading, by not balancing your obvious enthusiam with the brutal realities of gun ownership. It is not always the best thing and some less savvy dim-witted people might get the wrong ideas. (Hey I'm safe now ..I've got a gun!)....and those are EXACTLY the people that shouldn't possess a gun.
Dimwitted?-Arturo?
First- read the original question -no intent there to sway people one way or the other. second-My "gun Dealing" has been distribution to stores only, such as L.L.Beans. Third-The Majority of legitimate gun owners are not dimwitted and indeed savy-just like most sailors. Fourth-The ability to express both sides of this issue in a Forum such as this allows those interested to see what I asked for in the original question. PROS AND CONS. Thank You for Your input. mark
First- read the original question -no intent there to sway people one way or the other. second-My "gun Dealing" has been distribution to stores only, such as L.L.Beans. Third-The Majority of legitimate gun owners are not dimwitted and indeed savy-just like most sailors. Fourth-The ability to express both sides of this issue in a Forum such as this allows those interested to see what I asked for in the original question. PROS AND CONS. Thank You for Your input. mark
Mark, I think you need to re-read Arturo's post
No where did he say that "the majority of legitimate gun owners are dimwitted" as you suggest. He said " some less savvy dim-witted people might get the wrong ideas". So I wouldn't go turning his words around and he makes some very valid points in his post. And the fact that Sir Blake is Dead (and I'm sure others too!) WITH a gun in their hands should be a sobering wake up call. Below is a website of someone that advises yacht security for a living .....some interesting reading.
No where did he say that "the majority of legitimate gun owners are dimwitted" as you suggest. He said " some less savvy dim-witted people might get the wrong ideas". So I wouldn't go turning his words around and he makes some very valid points in his post. And the fact that Sir Blake is Dead (and I'm sure others too!) WITH a gun in their hands should be a sobering wake up call. Below is a website of someone that advises yacht security for a living .....some interesting reading.
Rope Dance . . .
"It was also reported that had he not used a weapon he would most likely be alive today..." Who said that? The gunman? "Oh yes Officer, I wouldn't have shot the bloke if he hadn't shot at me first . . ." What drivel! And it's sad to put down a fellow who died trying to defend himself and his crew. Please place the blame where it belongs, with the bad guys. We should go back to that time honored tradition of hanging these creeps outside harbor openings. Nick
"It was also reported that had he not used a weapon he would most likely be alive today..." Who said that? The gunman? "Oh yes Officer, I wouldn't have shot the bloke if he hadn't shot at me first . . ." What drivel! And it's sad to put down a fellow who died trying to defend himself and his crew. Please place the blame where it belongs, with the bad guys. We should go back to that time honored tradition of hanging these creeps outside harbor openings. Nick
Remaining civil
Spirited threads are great, however, I do want to point out that this is not the place to debate gun control or the right to bear arms. The original question had to do with use and possession of firearms while cruising. Also, and more important, the fundamental ground rule of this forum is civility. I ask that you refrain from name-calling and other inflammatory remarks. If some authors are unable to comply with these rules I will be forced to remove the entire thread. Thanks for your cooperation. ph.
Spirited threads are great, however, I do want to point out that this is not the place to debate gun control or the right to bear arms. The original question had to do with use and possession of firearms while cruising. Also, and more important, the fundamental ground rule of this forum is civility. I ask that you refrain from name-calling and other inflammatory remarks. If some authors are unable to comply with these rules I will be forced to remove the entire thread. Thanks for your cooperation. ph.
Common Sense!
When cruising the Bahamas in the late 70's and early 80's we always carried a gun due to concerns with drug traffickers. It was legal then to have a gun on board if it were declared. Before bringing a gun on board I'd consider .... 1) the degree of risk in the country/area I'm visiting 2)whether guns are legal there 3)whether I am truly proficient in using my gun and, 3) if I am willing to kill an intruder. Taking a gun into an area where it is illegal to possess is a more difficult issue!
When cruising the Bahamas in the late 70's and early 80's we always carried a gun due to concerns with drug traffickers. It was legal then to have a gun on board if it were declared. Before bringing a gun on board I'd consider .... 1) the degree of risk in the country/area I'm visiting 2)whether guns are legal there 3)whether I am truly proficient in using my gun and, 3) if I am willing to kill an intruder. Taking a gun into an area where it is illegal to possess is a more difficult issue!
Tom-Excellent Link
The LINK you included in your response was great. Thanks for the input-that LINK was the type of response I had hoped for. mark
The LINK you included in your response was great. Thanks for the input-that LINK was the type of response I had hoped for. mark
- Status